WC : Bad or Good?

[Zen Reptiles]

As I said, big breeders dedicated to establishing CB populations. Whoever those people may be; if they don't exist, don't import that animal.

I think the pet trade is going to be an important factor to the survival of many reptiles, as can be seen going on now with amphibians - read up on Atelopus zetiki and how it is extinct in the wild due to habitat loss + chytrid fungus, yet there are zoos working with them to establish a healthy CB population for later re-introduction.

I guess what I meant with a chameloen being happier with better chances of survival is that they'd be taken care of properly by the people they go to, I guess I had more belief in the common person than I should have. When Trace just posted those numbers, that faith went out the window.

With those numbers, ONE single import should be enough to establish the species in captivity, but they are squandered on people like you and me who aren't dedicated enough.

WC is is bittersweet.

 

[eisentrauti]

It's just too "stupid" / its brain is made for other things than to think emotional....

 

[eisentrauti]

With those numbers, ONE single import should be enough to establish the species in captivity, but they are squandered on people like you and me who aren't dedicated enough.

Why do you always exaggerate ? One single import is for no species enough, not even for calyptratus or pardalis.

 

[Frock]

How do YOU know what a CHAMELEON is feeling? .....

I don't claim to know what its feeling, I was only combating all the sentimental stuff that was being thrown around. I don't know what its thinking and you don't know either, for all you know they might enjoy being treated badly. It makes much more sense to make no assumptions about it at all. Sure, the emotional comfort provided by the belief that you understand your chameleon is there, but it is nonetheless totally unjustifiable, true or not.

 

[eisentrauti]

Very well said, Frock
The best are the threads where the hole world show their sympathy to keepers who feed their chams 10 crickets per day and wonder why it's dead now...

 

[Zen Reptiles]

I don't mean happy in the emotional sense, jumping around eating skittles. I mean happy in the sense that it meets all its needs with no constant threat of being eaten. They are stupid animals, but they know when their survival needs are met, which can be summed up as happy, no?

Anyways, you don't think one import is enough? I'll show you an example of how I'm under-exaggerating.

21500 Chamaeleo senegalensis were exported last year. They can lay two clutches a year of upwards of 70 eggs.
16000 Chamaeleo dilepis were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 60 eggs.
4000 Trioceros melleri were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 50-70 eggs.
3000 Kingongia multituberculata were exported last year. They breed several times a year and lay on average 15 eggs per clutch.
2000 Furcifer lateralis lateralis exported last year. They lay upwards of 6 times a year or more and lay on average 20 per clutch.

If we divide the numbers in two, and for the hell of it even subtract 500 from that, that should be the number of females.

That's 10,250 senegal females, even laying one clutch a year that equals to 717,000 senegals. And they can lay TWO clutches a year.

Am I wrong that that equals to 1,434,000 chameleons? In ONE year. Even if my estimate of females is off by half, that's more than enough chameleons to keep the hobby going without desecrating nature.

Let's go down to the mellers. we get 1500 females, even on the low end of 50 eggs, that's 75,000 new meller babies. If you do the math for the multiberculata, it should equal out to about the same number if not more.

That's on the LOW end of what we should be capable of producing ourselves.

Now those of you that think 'Oh in the wild that many chameleons would be a pest.' - they are an important food source for other animals, and play an important part in keeping other pest populations down (mosquitos, etc).

Just keep in mind that maybe one in a hundred survives to breed again in the wild, but in captivity we have the resources and knowledge and scientific capability that our animals should have 100% survival rate.

For some reason we have this concept that we need to keep bringing resources from elsewhere to meet our needs, but we don't. You can eat perfectly well by eating locally produced food within your own state or province, you can be clothed well buying within just 100 miles.

For most people, the only locally produced food item they have in their entire house is their honey. I guess being self-sufficient is a state of mind that's not very profitable for big business, so most people are trained to deny it.

 

[eisentrauti]

Just keep in mind that maybe one in a hundred survives to breed again in the wild, but in captivity we have the resources and knowledge and scientific capability that our animals should have 100% survival rate.

haha, bad joke...

 

[LovitaVelvet]

Brock, 100% survival rate in captivity might be over optimistic, but I do agree that the import numbers for some of these species is appalling and that more responsibly in working with the predominately WC species needs to occur.

More CB populations are the key to having a sustainable herp hobby.

I don't think that only large breeders should have access to WC for breeding purposes, but that the only responsible keepers should have access to WC.

 

[Rocky]

Just because they are imported doesn't mean they are bred....

 

[luevelvet]

Well, the long and the short of it is, they're only captured because we buy them. Stop buying them, and they'll stop being captured for the pet trade. Don't get me wrong, we're all in this together. Breeders, Scientists and Enthusiasts are all in the same boat.

The issue is we've taken too much in some cases. We need to start working towards revolutionizing the industry as a whole. Promote responsible husbandry and educating the consumer. At the end of the day, keeping these animals alive isn't all that hard. You just need to know...

I can only hope that one day I can give back what I've taken out. Or at the very least be a part of the movement that does.

Luis

 

[Pure]

Well said Luis.

Benny, I'm pretty sure by "one import" Brock is talking about one yrs worth of importing. And Brock Benny is saying that just one set of imports (2 animals) isn't enough genetics to keep CB specimens thriving.

Brock I also disagree with big breeders being the only ones allowed to get imports. Any one interested in breeding plays a vital role in producing CB animals for the hobby. For every big breeder out there, there are 100 (guesstimate) or more backyard breeders doing the same thing. I do think that the numbers of animals imported are bordering on sickening. There needs to be a percentage put on animals allowed to be purchased by those not willing to breed. Of course you could always lie to the dealer, but it would at least make awareness more available to the common hobbyist.

 

[Zen Reptiles]

Oh ok I got it. And yeah I should said one 'quota' instead of one import.

Anyways, a good way to make this work would to pass some legislation that allows for a permit and possibly some minimal financial backing to people dedicated to getting CB populations established.

It is of paramount importance, because if you think about it, we are really doing a lot of harm even to the 'pest' species in the wild.

The guys out there picking them off the trees are taking the biggest, nicest, healthiest ones so they can sell them at a premium and they'll survive to get sold, and leaving the sick weak ones behind. This will play havoc with natural selection over the generations - we are causing nature to become survival of the weakest.

 

[Cainschams]

Brock, do you really think the people picking them off the trees has any prejudice to which ones they take. I honestly have no clue but I wouldnt think they would take one off the tree and inspect it before throwing it into the bag. Seems it would be more like a jewelry heist. Run in, throw all that you see in a bag, get the hell out and see what you came up with when you get home.

BTW, may seem I am just trying to disagree with you in this thread but that is not the case. Just trying to have a good discussion

I do agree one quota should be plenty for most of these species to start a nice CB population. The thing is most wont take a 50$ chameleon seriously! There is no incentive to breed them (because most humans are greedy and always think about money). Put a pardalis price tag on any of them and I bet there will be more people who would want to start taking them seriously.

With the small price tags it would be hard to find someone who is dedicated to taking on such a hard task. One would loose lots of money if they were to do it on the scale that it would take to start a large CB population. Even if you add only 50$ to the CB species people will still take the WC over the CB. However, limiting who is allowed to buy such species and making the average Joe not able to purchase them would solve this.

 

[eisentrauti]

The guys down there in Africa don't look for the best or the biggest or the healthiest animal - they just catch the ones they see first. That's also the reason why eg from Lygodactylus williamsi more than 70% of the WC ones are males. They could be found easier

 

[TreelionsUK]

WC's are Needed more than ever for the purist's working with paradalis,all these people that insisting on crossbreeding them because...."it will make pretty colours"! have further boosted this need for wild animals.

Taking any animal from its enviroment is not a good thing,but needs to happen,for you,me and all keepers of chameleons.

Sometimes i feel bad when i start to think deeply about keeping Chameleons..Really they should be free doing what they do.......

But for the Hobby and the enjoyment of humans working with chameleons,wild collection is Essential

I think WC's Should be MORE expensive,to ensure the commitment and full understanding of the person willing to work with them.

The numbers of wild collected animals is shocking,but its a wake up call and highlights how badly people trying to breed them really do.....

neither good or bad..but Essential

 

[philanddeb818]

Indeed Benny. Indeed. As much as I love my odd species, I'd be the happiest person if ALL imports stopped today.

Let's look at some statistics from 2008 and 2009 (these numbers do not include illegally smuggled specimens)

21500 Chamaeleo senegalensis were exported last year. They can lay two clutches a year of upwards of 70 eggs.
16000 Chamaeleo dilepis were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 60 eggs.
4000 Trioceros melleri were exported last year. They breed once a year with clutches of 50-70 eggs.
3000 Kingongia multituberculata were exported last year. They breed several times a year and lay on average 15 eggs per clutch.
2000 Furcifer lateralis lateralis exported last year. They lay upwards of 6 times a year or more and lay on average 20 per clutch.

How many viable babies were born from those imported parents last year? How many of those original specimens are still alive this year? I'll venture to say close to 0 for both questions. It was zero (or thereabouts) for 2007 and 2006 and 2005 and so on and so on...

We don't need 'new blood' in breeding programs if we can't even keep the 'old blood' alive in the first place.

Trace

Trace, totally NOT challenging you...just dying to know where you got this info? This is shocking!

 

[eisentrauti]

Cites ?!?

 

[Trace]

Trace, totally NOT challenging you...just dying to know where you got this info? This is shocking!

Cites ?!?

Correct. Search by species here:

http://www.cites.org/eng/resources/species.html

If everyone is shocked by the amount of chameleons exported annually; have a look at the numbers of Ball Pythons, Iguanas, Crocodilians and some Varanids.

 

[Pure]

The Iguana numbers don't bother me. Thanks to human agriculture their numbers are bordering plague proportions. They need to be weeded out. What does bother me is how many are sold to a certain death. Baby iguanas aren't easy to care for and WCs often refuse to eat. I'm all for culling if need be, but it should be done in a humane way. Selling a baby iguana to a parent of a 6 yr old to live it's short life in a 10 gallon until it starves to death is not the way to do it.

I've actually sat at a Smoker's bench behind Boca Raton Community hospital and counted 40 Iguanas in my field of vision. This is not a wooded area. It's a residential neighborhood. Next to a drainage canal followed by back yard fences. I can only imagine their numbers in their natural habitat.

Kinda the same thing with the number of chams. Not that they are that abundant in their natural habitat, but that they are all too often sold to individuals who haven't a clue how to care for them nor do they care to find out. You really have to wonder how many of those numbers imported/exported went to a person who just let the animal waste away. I think that, above all is the saddest thing. The numbers imported are not the shocker. How many die due to careless, untrained, uniformed people is.