WC cham 1st visit to A exotic

[Tygerr]

Kristi,

At the outset, I'm going to say that I do NOT support what you are doing. But you knew that already.

Despite some of the more, er, 'romantic' notions expressed here that you may actually be saving its life, because it could have been "been plucked away by some bird and eaten" in the wild, I have to agree with Roo that the chances of WC cham surviving are actually much greater in the WILD. Even if you got all the right equipment, and practised all the right husbandry, it should be common sense that an animal accustomed to living in the wild will always be uneasy living in captivity. Apply the same logic to wild caught birds or mammals: would you keep a Cape Sparrow in a cage?

Its chances of breeding, and continuing an already dwindling species would also be much greater in the wild.
So you really are interfering with the fragile ecosystem in the Cape Fynbos. As a South African, who is made aware of wildlife problems like this constantly (we are trying to promote this country as an ecotourism destination, remember?) I would have thought that you would have realised that.

If you're worried about what is going to happen to the chameleon in the wild, speak to Dr. Krystal Tolley ([email protected]). She is one of the leading researchers of dwarf chameleons in the world, and she is based in Cape Town.
I'm sure she will put your mind at ease about releasing the cham back into the wild, and she could possibly even suggest a release into one of the reserves that her organisation is currently monitoring.

However, it seems the authorities in the Cape WILL permit you to keep the animal, provided you obtain a permit from them. The permit is quite cheap (R60), and doesn't seem to be that onorous to obtain.
If you are going to keep the animal (and although I suggest that you don't, you probably will anyway), then at least get the permit so that the wildlife authorities are informed about the status of these animals in their area.
Go to http://www.capenature.org.za and look under the 'Permits' section.

You've expressed that "It caught my heart." Well, how heart broken are you going to be when it dies in your care (more than likely well short of its natural life expectancy), and you know that you were the one responsible for that shortened life expectency?

I understand how fascinated you are by the chameleon you are, and I understand how easy it is to fall in love with them. I feel the same way - that's why I keep them.
But the thing is, it would be far better if you got into the hobby in a way that doesn't impact the environment.
I still strongly suggest that you earnestly look around for reptile traders/breeders in the area that can provide you with a captive-bred specimen. Like I said, the captive-bred reptile trade has grown immensely in South Africa - if it hadn't, you wouldn't have been able to obtain those UVB lights, supplements, etc.
Start with this website http://capereptileclub.co.za/ and try to get in touch with some of the members and find out if any of them are breeding chameleons.
Also, there is a number listed for "Cape Pets and Reptiles" on the www.reptilepets.co.za website.

My latest Veiled chameleon was from a breeder in Natal, so I'm convinced that it is not only Jo'burg that is home to a thriving reptile-keeping community. I'm sure there must be active breeders down in the Cape too.

You've already obtained some of the equipment necessary (although from your description, your current setup is still lacking in some respects), so most of the additional cost you will be incurring will be the purchase of the animal itself. And if you really do love them so much, that cost won't be that much of a burden to bear right?

Once you've done that, I will be more than happy to help you find resources, equipment, and even vets in South Africa (I've been compiling a lot of chameleon info specifically for South Africans that I will soon publish on a website).
I've given you enough information now to make the right decision. I hope you do.

-Tyron.

 

[Heika]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and have to chime in.

It has been my understanding for quite some time that captive animals kept in good condition that acclimate to captivity well actually live longer lives than their wild counterparts. After all, the animals in the wild have to contend with predators, food scarcity, parasites, and weather changes. Am I wrong in believing that the average life span of a wild chameleon is fairly short? Does anyone know the answer to this?

I am not suggesting that capturing wild chameleons is somehow more humane than leaving them in the wild. As anyone who has kept chameleons for any length of time is aware, the vast majority of WC chameleons die in a short period of time. In fact, it is estimated that hundreds of thousands become victim to the pet industry every year. In addition, capturing chameleons for the pet trade is endangering the ecological system of some areas. For those few that acclimate to captivity, though... do they live shorter lives than those in the wild?

Heika

 

[titan501x]

I have been reading this thread with interest, and have to chime in.

It has been my understanding for quite some time that captive animals kept in good condition that acclimate to captivity well actually live longer lives than their wild counterparts. After all, the animals in the wild have to contend with predators, food scarcity, parasites, and weather changes. Am I wrong in believing that the average life span of a wild chameleon is fairly short? Does anyone know the answer to this?


Heika

I've heard this too. at a repile show, a chameleon breeder was talking to me and my dad, and he mentioned that a female veiled chameleon has never been found in the wild that was over a year old. i could see why too, predators, lack of food and water, and of course egg laying.

 

[dimpleti]

Thanx Heika and Titan,

Not becoz you seem like supporting me, but for some valuable information.

My garden designer told me when he was a child at school, every student used to hav one WC cham. He never knew anything about equipment or encloser, nothing about misting or dripper, never feed the cham water, only sometimes took the cham closer to flies around. He totally had 4 different chams on and off for many years. None of them died on him. They most of the time lived on his curtains in his room. Normally he kept one for sometime like a year or two then got bored with it and let it go on trees. The longers on he kept for over 4 years.
There is another friend of us also had very extensive cham experience, none like what is told here. He said when he was young there were many many chams around on trees and everywhere. He used to hav many chams in the house--freerange. He never feed them food or water, never cared anything about housing them or misting them, temperature or humidity, nothing. They just walk freely in the house, living with 2 cats that my friend had. One time, they got too many of chams, they took like about 100 of chams in a big tin and brought them to ceres--a mountain north west of cape town, they hav a land there on the mountain, they wanted to breed them there. But they dont know about the temp the chams can take at that time. Ceres always hav snows in winter. I guess thats how the chams they took over there got killed. He said he went there many times, but never seen any chams on the mountain.
Both of them are very amazed at what I am doing and talking about how to care for the cham. Coz they never did nothing like what I am doing to keep a cham, but they kept many chams healthily long life before.

Thanx very much for everyone who cares about the little WC cham and my experience.


Kristi

 

[Tygerr]

a female veiled chameleon has never been found in the wild that was over a year old.

That may be true. And Heika, I'm pretty sure there are experienced keepers who do manage to keep WC chams to ages much older than what they live on average in the wild.

But that's not the point here. The point is that by prolonging one solitary WC cham's life you are in a small way endangering the continued existence of the entire species of those chams.

And I wish all keepers who purchase WC chams understood this. Every WC cham that is removed from the environment wipes out potentially thousands of future offspring that could have existed in that environment. So unless that WC cham is used to establish a successful captive-breeding program, nothing has been gained by taking that cham from nature. Sure, it alone may live to a ripe old age, but what about the impact on the ecosystem it came from?

I'm not trying to criticise keepers of WC chams here, but as keepers, we all need to start shouldering some of the responsibility for those hundreds of thousands of WC chams that are being shipped out of Africa each year. The pet trade is not a good enough reason for the removal of that many animals from the wild.

Chameleon keeping seems to be growing a lot. That's not necessarily a bad thing. People have been keeping pet birds for centuries. One day I'm sure having a Veiled, Jackson's or Panther will be analogous to having a Budgie, Parakeet or Canary. But people realise that they can't keep Bald Eagles, Vultures or rare Amazonian parrots as pets. So maybe people need to start realising that if you can't get a captive-bred specimen, then perhaps that Parson's, Gracilis, Senegal, Bradypodion, etc. is not the cham for you...

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm preaching here. But chameleons are threatened enough already - I just don't want my hobby to become the cause of their extinction.

 

[Tygerr]

And one other thing...

Heika said... "the animals in the wild have to contend with predators, food scarcity, parasites, and weather changes"

Titan said... "i could see why too, predators, lack of food and water, and of course egg laying"

One thing that everyone forgets to mention is that the biggest threat to chameleons in the wild today, is the destruction of their habitats through human urbanisation.

The WC cham that is the subject of this thread is a good example of that. The only reason it has come into contact with Dimpleti is not because it enjoys living amongst humans, it is because humans have now moved into their natural habitat.

Still, we can try to co-exist with them by making our environments more habitable to them (like not using pesticides in gardens, growing indigenous trees in our gardens, not introducing exotic/domesticated animal species into their environments), or we can choose to just collect them all and keep them as pets until they die out, and no one can find them anymore...

Dimpleti said... "My garden designer told me when he was a child at school, every student used to hav one WC cham" and "There is another friend of us also had very extensive cham experience, none like what is told here. He said when he was young there were many many chams around on trees and everywhere"
Since I've been keeping chams, everyone I've shown them to tells me the same sort of story. Of how when they were young, they used to find chams in their gardens all the time (even here in Jo'burg), and how they all used to play with chams when they were kids. Today however, hardly anyone ever sees chameleons anymore. And everyone wonders why that is, when it is painfully obvious...

 

[roo_71]

I see your point Heika but I guess I was referring to the big picture … not just longevity but mental health, quality of life and such. I think a chameleon that lived in the wild for just one year has had a better life then one that lived in a 38g reptarium for three.

-roo

 

[Heika]

And I wish all keepers who purchase WC chams understood this. Every WC cham that is removed from the environment wipes out potentially thousands of future offspring that could have existed in that environment. So unless that WC cham is used to establish a successful captive-breeding program, nothing has been gained by taking that cham from nature. Sure, it alone may live to a ripe old age, but what about the impact on the ecosystem it came from?

Well said. I agree completely with this. Even experienced keepers have huge losses when trying to establish breeding programs, though. Although I am completely guilty of purchasing WC animals, the more I read about the impact the pet trade is having upon wild populations of chameleons, the more I feel there should be strong limits placed upon importation. Those limits would raise the price and make the animals more inaccessible, eliminating the impulse purchaser. When a chameleon only costs $20.00, it becomes expendable.

 

[Tygerr]

Exactly Heika.

The main problem is that the chameleons are being captured in countries were poverty is rife. To the people supplying WC chams $20 for an animal represents more than a month's wages in a normal job (but judging from some of the African exporter's sites I've visited, they're certainly not paying these poor locals $20 per animal).

So the supply will continue as long as there are people out there demanding them, and for as long as the people collecting the animals are living below the breadline, the supply will always be cheap.

Restrictions imposed by CITES can help increase the prices (and thus limit demand) because there will only be a limited supply of legal chams, but so far with other species these restrictions have only served to increase trade in the illegal black market. You are right though that this will help to discourage impulse buyers who treat their chams as expendable.

So the demand also has to be curtailed in other ways, and so far the best that can be done is to promote captive-bred specimens as an attractive alternative (and I think the American panther breeders are doing a great job of this), and also to continue to educate people in nature conservation, and certainly to discourage the keeping of WC chams.

 

[Heika]

I see your point Heika but I guess I was referring to the big picture … not just longevity but mental health, quality of life and such. I think a chameleon that lived in the wild for just one year has had a better life then one that lived in a 38g reptarium for three.

-roo

I understand that, roo. There are a lot of us who have kept WC animals that, despite every effort, don't aclimate to a captive environment. Some animals just aren't meant to be caged, and they make that known by dying. It seems that the biggest reason to purchase cb animals is because they come from a line of animals that do successfully aclimate to captivity. Just like any other animal, certain traits and tendancies are passed down from the parents to the offspring. If the parents are content and thriving, the chance is higher that the offpring will as well.

Restrictions imposed by CITES can help increase the prices (and thus limit demand) because there will only be a limited supply of legal chams, but so far with other species these restrictions have only served to increase trade in the illegal black market.

But, the illegal black market is only a drop in the bucket compared to the rampant importation of animals in years gone by. There used to be a member on this forum who talked about parson's sitting in cages dying because demand was so low for them. Now look.. any parson's that makes it into the country, legal or not, is worth a small mint. That certainly keeps the demand to a managable level, and to my knowledge, there have been well under a hundred imported in the past 12 months.

I am not supporting what dimpleti has decided to do. Personally, I think that if she keeps the neonate long enough to see it well on its way to adulthood and then releases it back to the wild, then there is no harm done... in fact, it will be helpful for the wild population. I know, I know.. survival of the fittest. However, when there are only a small number of a species left in existance, even somewhat unfit genetics are better than losing them all together.

I really am simply curious about longevity numbers for wild animals. I also sympathize with dimpleti, because I know I would have a very hard time releasing that chameleon back into the wild.

Heika