What happened? Chameleon died - bleeding tongue

[edtheroach]

I am heartbroken tonight. I came home to find my chameleon, Sylvanas, hanging off a vine with her limbs outstretched and covered in ants. Her body was still pliable but her limbs were set in a certain position as if she had been reaching for another branch. Her tongue was partially hanging out of her mouth with blood and water coming out. I found a large concentration of blood on the leaves close to her heat lamp. I had her food dish suspended by a paperclip, but I think if she cut her tongue on the paperclip, I would have found blood on it? I really don't understand what caused the tongue injury but I think it resulted in her bleeding to death...although it didn't seem like enough blood to kill something her size. She was almost a year old. I also noticed that her underbelly was sunken in a little. She had an egg laying bin, but she also had a pretty big stomach...I don't know if she was gravid and if the eggs killed her...how would I know? I just want to know what I did wrong.

Below is a picture of the blood in her cage. I can post a picture of her post-mortem but I didn't want to do so unless someone requests it to help me figure out what happened.

 

[kinyonga]

So sorry for your loss.
I really don't know what happened to your poor chameleon. We could only guess. A necropsy might give you some answers.
How long have you had the ant problem? What kind of ants?

 

[edtheroach]

The ants were crazy ants I think. They are on the side of our house and live in the bushes and weeds. They come in for food and water. That's why I had vapo rub all over the outside of her cage and outside of her water container that was used for misting. I noticed a big reduction in ants and at any time in the past couple of weeks, I would only see one or two in her cage. I don't think the ants caused her death. I wonder if she had a parasite from an infected feeder insect? Her mouth, nose, and eyes were bleeding. I also checked her tummy and didn't feel any eggs but I didn't find any in her lay bin either and she was nearly a year old.

 

[Beman]

So without doing a complete husbandry review we are shooting in the dark. Failure to thrive can happen with incorrect UVB lighting and distance. Also supplement issues can cause major issues.

The one thing that stands out is the vicks you were rubbing all on the outside of the cage... This has a very potent odor. Chams have extremely sensitive lungs so this could have impacted her. If she could have accessed any of it this is also an issue. Vicks is toxic to cats and dogs. So if she ingested or got any on her skin this would be toxic to her as well.

 

[kinyonga]

I have to agree with @Beman I think it could have been the Vicks vapour rub that could have been at least. Apart of the problem.
The camphor in it could kill a child... So if your chameleon ingested any of it, (say if an insect walked through it and then the chameleon ate it), it might kill the chameleon.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...xpert-answers/nasal-decongestant/faq-20058569

 

[edtheroach]

The ants were crazy ants I think. They are on the side of our house and live in the bushes and weeds. They come in for food and water. That's why I had vapo rub all over the outside of her cage and outside of her water container that was used for misting. I noticed a big reduction in ants and at any time in the past couple of weeks, I would only see one or two in her cage. I don't think the ants causes her death. I wonder if she had a parasite from an infected feeder insect? Her mouth, nose, and eyes

So without doing a complete husbandry review we are shooting in the dark. Failure to thrive can happen with incorrect UVB lighting and distance. Also supplement issues can cause major issues.

The one thing that stands out is the vicks you were rubbing all on the outside of the cage... This has a very potent odor. Chams have extremely sensitive lungs so this could have impacted her. If she could have accessed any of it this is also an issue. Vicks is toxic to cats and dogs. So if she ingested or got any on her skin this would be toxic to her as well.

I was thinking...but it didn't have a smell. It wasn't Vicks. I got confused. It was petroleum jelly. I had seen it recommended on a chameleon website to keep ants from crawling in the enclosure. I've used it almost all 6 months I've had her. Is petroleum jelly toxic?

 

[edtheroach]

I have to agree with @Beman I think it could have been the Vicks vapour rub that could have been at least. Apart of the problem.
The camphor in it could kill a child... So if your chameleon ingested any of it, (say if an insect walked through it and then the chameleon ate it), it might kill the chameleon.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases...xpert-answers/nasal-decongestant/faq-20058569

I was wrong about the product. I was using plain petroleum jelly.

 

[nightanole]

While morbid, ive had a few lizards bite their tongues hard right before death, kinda like a last gasp. So the tongue thing might have been a dead end.

Typically when they suddenly die, its right before adulthood when they are putting on the weight the fastest, and a congenital defect finally raises its head and that particular organ just can not support the body weight and growth.

 

[kinyonga]

I was wrong about the product. I was using plain petroleum jelly.

Good to hear that. Still wonder why your chameleon died though.

 

[Lindasjackson]

I had ants swarm a cage that I had my pet anoles in and they killed every one of my anoles. It happened early in the morning and I woke up to the massacre with thousands of ants all over the anoles. Do you think that might have happened?

 

[kinyonga]

If your chameleon was eating the ants depending on what species of ant you have in what cage...
"there are certain types of ants that can be toxic to these reptiles. This is why it’s important that you know what type of ant your chameleon is eating before letting them do so"...
https://reptilesguide.com/can-chameleons-eat-ants/

I know that formic acid can cause bleeding but I don't know under what circumstances or how much it would need to cause it.

 

[edtheroach]

Good to hear that. Still wonder why your chameleon died though.

I really wish I knew

 

[edtheroach]

If your chameleon was eating the ants depending on what species of ant you have in what cage...
"there are certain types of ants that can be toxic to these reptiles. This is why it’s important that you know what type of ant your chameleon is eating before letting them do so"...
https://reptilesguide.com/can-chameleons-eat-ants/

I know that formic acid can cause bleeding but I don't know under what circumstances or how much it would need to cause it.

Oh...do crazy ants have that? I would wonder if they could have caused bleeding post-mortem but the blood was on the top leaves and I found her towards the bottom of the cage

 

[edtheroach]

I had ants swarm a cage that I had my pet anoles in and they killed every one of my anoles. It happened early in the morning and I woke up to the massacre with thousands of ants all over the anoles. Do you think that might have happened?

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think the ants caused her death because there weren't that many on her. I got the feeling I found her soon after she died because I only found about 10 to 12 ants on her.

 

[Lindasjackson]

I'm sorry to hear that. I don't think the ants caused her death because there weren't that many on her. I got the feeling I found her soon after she died because I only found about 10 to 12 ants on her.

Thank you. I’m sorry you lost your Cham. I wouldn’t rule out the ants as the cause.