What Happened to the Reptile Hobby?!

[Texas Ranger]

Wow so much bashing and hate at a animal(ball pythons) that is not needed. Yes there is a lot if people breeding them yes there maybe some people doing for greed. But I for one have them and I am not doing it for money I simply enjoy the snake normal and morph. All the morph you all are seeing are products of wild caught snakes most found as adults in the wild some farmed hatched. Them being different does not make them weeker or un healthy. I have never inbreed my ball pythons and all my HET ball pythons came from HETs not related at all in my resseive lines and all my co-doms are completely unrelated. Ball pythons are not easy to breed who ever said that should go back to snake 101. And yes I agree the scaleless ball is a little odd but no health concerns have shown on it and Brian at bhb reptiles has said if there is any health issue the snake will not be breed. Is it un natural yes but so are my japan koi that are red,white,blue,yellow,metalic,SCALELESS TOO, white and all other colors but people have been breeding them for years and there still a healthy awesome fish scaleless and all different colors. So to assume a scaleless snake is cruel is un called for. Now I do agree that there all a lot of miss treated snakes at the show breed for a buck and that's it. But I know a lot of breeders including my self that try and do our best to make healthy and awesome looking balls unrelated and very cool. I breed Cham as well and I see just as many people whole selling and selling chams as a dollor as much as ball pythons. The only difference is chams die easyer so it's harder for the guy out making a buck to have success compared to a person like me that just loves chams but still it is being done the same as balls. Is there to many ball pythons at show yes but that is because they are a very neat and cool snake that has a lot of paint jobs and is very easy to care for and lives a long time and have a very nice temperament and a great snake to have to get in to reptiles with. I know a few people that got them for there first reptile and has made the fear go away from scaly things and that has made them get into more different reptiles that they still love. So I say the ball python has made reptiles and snakes more accepted and less taboo. I do wish there were more at shows and rear stuff and odd stuff but some of that is very hard to care for and protected now unlike 10 years ago when I got into the hobby. But they are still delicated herpers out there working with very cool reptiles. Anyways I do see some of you alls complaints but do not bash it all because I for one do not in breed and do not just look at my snakes and other reptiles as dollor signs. And just because a snake that has all different morphs colors and scale patterns does not mean it is un healthy and not right or inbreed. If you all under stood the genetics more you may have not made those comments. And again look at koi fish scaleless and all different colors and healthy and have been for 1000s of years.

 

[Texas Ranger]

I am sorry OP that you and your daughter did not have a good time. Maybe swing by a texas NARBC one day yeah there is a lot of ball pythons but a whole lot of cool and odd reptiles to and specialty breeders of them.

 

[Mredhorse]

Yeah!! I remember the days that the snake was not the big reptile. Aging myself----- how about when Parsons were 70 bucks at pet-shops..(before petco and petsmart were around).. Yes, at one time there was not a petco and petsmart.. ha ha ha

 

[junglefries]

Welcome to the next generation. today is nothing like when i started at the age of 14 in 1985. You must either adapt or get out of the way, apparently. actually, right now in VA it is all about geckos, beardies, & turtles or tortoises. we actually used to rock colubrids. back before brad mckown fell off the map.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Yeah!! I remember the days that the snake was not the big reptile. Aging myself----- how about when Parsons were 70 bucks at pet-shops..(before petco and petsmart were around).. Yes, at one time there was not a petco and petsmart.. ha ha ha

Yeah my buddy bob Clark was telling me he use to buy parsons in 20 lots for $40 each back in the day

Welcome to the next generation. today is nothing like when i started at the age of 14 in 1985. You must either adapt or get out of the way, apparently. actually, right now in VA it is all about geckos, beardies, & turtles or tortoises. we actually used to rock colubrids. back before brad mckown fell off the map.

I remember the colubrid days. The first albino milk snake was a world shocker

 

[junglefries]

@ texas ranger: for me it was a snow corn and some tangerine milks. i miss those.

 

[Texas Ranger]

@ texas ranger: for me it was a snow corn and some tangerine milks. i miss those.

Tangerine milks are still on of my favorites to.

 

[dhm198555]

Texas Ranger...

Hey!

I appreciate the comments and it's always good to hear from both sides of a good debate but I think you might not have caught the actual point I was trying to make. Lemme try n clarify.

My very first pet snake was a ball python, a female named Lucy who I had for over ten years. I'm not desputing the fact that balls make wonderful pets due to ease of care, size, and temperament, and that ball pythons have immensely helped and contributed to the evolution of our hobby in the mainstream, what I'm talking about is the horrifying and disgusting overbreeding that is so obviously going on right now. Animals that are being bred because they "look neat" with complete disregard for the animals health. How can it be good breeding practices to knowingly breed an animal whose genetics give it a very high likelihood of causing it's offspring a major mental or physical defect just to make a quick buck? Case in point the caramel albinos are known to have a VERY high likelihood of being born with major spinal deformities and kinks that leave no option but to put the animal down. I'm not saying that it's bad to make money off breeding reptiles or breed for specific genetic traits, but it IS bad if you're doing it irresponsibly and solely for the money. The way spiders can wobble around and look like they are riding rollercoasters isn't a cute behavior. It's disturbing.

I'm also talking in generalities. It goes without saying there obviously are still people responsibly breeding these snakes such as yourself but what worries me is it seems the irresponsible breeders are starting to out number the good. I could be totally wrong, this is just my personal observation.

There are plenty of amazing and beautiful ball python mutations that don't cause health issues, why can't the dangerous ones just be avoided?

The ball python is a BEAUTIFUL species without any need to mess so hap-hazardly with it's genetics. The same can be said for many other species right now like leos and beardies, everytime I see a silkie bearded dragon I want to cry for it. You can only line and selectively breed any vertebrate species before major health issues begin running rampant.

I keep hearing over and over too the selective and line breeding of other animals like fish and dogs but honestly, I don't think that just because people do it to other species it makes it morally acceptable to do it to another.

I may have exaggerated how unhappy we were with the show, we ultimately did have a pretty good time. My daughter was FASCINATED with the rattlesnakes rattling around in their deli cups and I was able to trade off a very large boa for a couple more managable corns as well as pick up a lot of feeders and much needed supplies Im just disappointed I didn't pick up the amazingly nice female ambanja I saw

 

[Texas Ranger]

Hey!

I appreciate the comments and it's always good to hear from both sides of a good debate but I think you might not have caught the actual point I was trying to make. Lemme try n clarify.

My very first pet snake was a ball python, a female named Lucy who I had for over ten years. I'm not desputing the fact that balls make wonderful pets due to ease of care, size, and temperament, and that ball pythons have immensely helped and contributed to the evolution of our hobby in the mainstream, what I'm talking about is the horrifying and disgusting overbreeding that is so obviously going on right now. Animals that are being bred because they "look neat" with complete disregard for the animals health. How can it be good breeding practices to knowingly breed an animal whose genetics give it a very high likelihood of causing it's offspring a major mental or physical defect just to make a quick buck? Case in point the caramel albinos are known to have a VERY high likelihood of being born with major spinal deformities and kinks that leave no option but to put the animal down. I'm not saying that it's bad to make money off breeding reptiles or breed for specific genetic traits, but it IS bad if you're doing it irresponsibly and solely for the money. The way spiders can wobble around and look like they are riding rollercoasters isn't a cute behavior. It's disturbing.

I'm also talking in generalities. It goes without saying there obviously are still people responsibly breeding these snakes such as yourself but what worries me is it seems the irresponsible breeders are starting to out number the good. I could be totally wrong, this is just my personal observation.

There are plenty of amazing and beautiful ball python mutations that don't cause health issues, why can't the dangerous ones just be avoided?

The ball python is a BEAUTIFUL species without any need to mess so hap-hazardly with it's genetics. The same can be said for many other species right now like leos and beardies, everytime I see a silkie bearded dragon I want to cry for it. You can only line and selectively breed any vertebrate species before major health issues begin running rampant.

I keep hearing over and over too the selective and line breeding of other animals like fish and dogs but honestly, I don't think that just because people do it to other species it makes it morally acceptable to do it to another.

I may have exaggerated how unhappy we were with the show, we ultimately did have a pretty good time. My daughter was FASCINATED with the rattlesnakes rattling around in their deli cups and I was able to trade off a very large boa for a couple more managable corns as well as pick up a lot of feeders and much needed supplies Im just disappointed I didn't pick up the amazingly nice female ambanja I saw

Well at least you had a few good things at the show. And I hear ya on the caramel albinos and spiders as far as I know that is the only two mutations that cause a disability to the animal and I do not work with those morphs other then a super pastel spider female I rescued and she doesn't have any wobble or any genetic hiccups but I do understand your concern there but truthfully those two morphs are on there way out of the ball python breeding projects because of those issues which I think is a good thing.

 

[tony19]

I don't think a scale less snake or or anything else thats supposed to have scales that is or has been bread to not have them is good, cool or natural. Its just wrong that being said I do love to see all the different kinds. It just makes me made when I see people talking about spider caramel like the head shake and kinks are just part of having one. Im glad to hear there out the door. There just every were now. I used to go into my local reptile store and they had all sorts of lizards snakes and spiders. Ever since they lifted the band in my area pythons and boas are in most of there set ups. They do how ever have lots of chams there Don't get me wrong I own a normal bp and a few boas and I love her and them. But but since the band lifted in my area every pet store around has them now. The saddest thing is some of these places don't take care of them. But there money makers so that's why there there.

I do have a friend who breeds them he makes a ton of money off of them he supplies a lot of stores in my area. He breads cause he loves doing it. And he questions you and makes sure your not just someone who wants one cause your friend does. But some like others said most just don't care they want to make money. I'm not saying all are bad and I'm probably over exaggerating on the bad breeders. but the bp just over runs the reptile world.

I'm gonna stop ranting g now lol

 

[qdude46]

I agree. I m not hating on balls but people overdue them and it's tiring of just seeing rows of balls and corns with a few geckos here and there. I almost am done with expos,I wish I liked snakes because it seems much easier but to me they are to boring and I just don't get why people have to keep pushing them in our face while manhandling them. It's hard to find a breeder these days with a true passion.

 

[Carlton]

After reading this thread (and agreeing with so much of it!) it struck me we should turn the question around and look at it another way. Possibly those of us who mourn a change in the hobby are looking at the shows in the wrong light instead. Some probably started out as an opportunity for hobbyists to share their delight, accomplishments, and carefully produced animals, but now they've shifted to what is basically a commercial trade show...not much more than a live market.

I'm not saying I agree with all the ridiculous high end or mass production-focus at all, just that not everyone is going to agree on what purpose these expos serve. They are less and less oriented towards learning, sharing, and socializing, and more oriented to the buck.

 

[sandrachameleon]

I can agree with a lot of what has been said.

But I think the chameleon community cant really be considered all that much better.

I frequently see breeding for $$ and "looks" trumping any other consideration. It bothers me, but it doesn't surprise me - people, generally, just suck. People, generally, seem to consider human animals as somehow more important than any other animal, treat animals as objects, and see capitalism/consumerism/greed as the natural, proper pursuit.

 

[jpm995]

i agree, went to show on Long Island and snakes dominated. hard to find the oddball reptiles. many designer gekos to. was looking for thumbnail frogs and pygmy cham but not there. usually i can wander for hours but i left early.

 

[Ninkylou]

I can agree with a lot of what has been said.

But I think the chameleon community cant really be considered all that much better.

I frequently see breeding for $$ and "looks" trumping any other consideration. It bothers me, but it doesn't surprise me - people, generally, just suck. People, generally, seem to consider human animals as somehow more important than any other animal, treat animals as objects, and see capitalism/consumerism/greed as the natural, proper pursuit.

"All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others"
-George Orwell, Animal Farm, 1945

 

[ChamLady]

I'm new to reptiles/exotics/chameleons, just since 2009. My previous experience has been with dogs, mainly retired, racing greyhounds, 23 years as an owner, 12 years as a volunteer for an adoption group. We wanted to find loving, responsible homes for the dogs, but not make the greyhound the dog of the century, because of the exploitation that goes along with popularity. It has been like this forever with canines. Sorry to see it happen with reptiles. It would be nice to see more people enjoy chameleons, but with popularity will come more veiled Chams on Craig's List kept in aquariums, etc. It's a dilemma.

 

[MelissaB]

I do think that part of the reason you see more snakes than anything else, is the ease in which they're transported. I'm glad that I didn't see a lot of chameleons at the show I went to. I don't think the stress of a huge mob of people gawking at them is healthy for them. Not that it is for the other animals, but I think they're hardier and able to bounce back better. There are always going to be people that breed just for the money. If people make a concentrated effort to find quality breeders, the quick buck, non-quality breeders will slowly go out of business.

 

[Mike Fisher]

How to make a small fortune breeding chameleons........Start with a large fortune.

The vast majority of breeders in it for the money have no business experience, therefor do not calculate their expected expenses in advance. They just count their females, add up average clutch sizes and numbers, then multiply by the going price. Not just counting eggs before they hatch, but even before they are layed.

The calculated money amount they come up with is outlandish of course, because even if they could produce that many animals, they forget to deduct expenses over four or five years it takes to get to that level. They just assume that they can even find homes for that many and even if they do, they'll be lowering the price because they've just flooded the market.

Many times the professional breeders have to deal with bedroom breeders that have a main goal of producing as many animals as they can. To make it worse, sometimes parents are paying for feeders and electricity, so when they dump animals on the market for $20 ea. they don't take a loss, their parents do.

My prediction is that since so many people got into the ball python production, that it is really competitive between breeders and pricing and nobody is making any money, just trying to recoup what they've spent. At some point, a whole bunch of breeders will drop out because it is unsustainable.

How does this relate to chameleons?.....I could see this happening with panther chameleons very easily. There could be enough people setting up breeding programs right now to bring the prices down to bearded dragon levels in five years. If you are one of the ones setting up panthers for the money, be advised that so are thousands of other people right now. Timing the reptile industry is worse than playing the stock market.

The moral...Pick a species you like to work with, not one you think you can get the most money out of. That way when the market tanks for your chosen species, you are not throwing yourself off of a building.

 

[sandrachameleon]

.....I could see this happening with panther chameleons very easily. There could be enough people setting up breeding programs right now to bring the prices down to bearded dragon levels in five years. If you are one of the ones setting up panthers for the money, be advised that so are thousands of other people right now. Timing the reptile industry is worse than playing the stock market.

truly.
When I first got (and then bred) NosyBe panthers, males were selling for $400+ in my area. Now they are half that or less.
Im glad I wasn't in it for the money - I easily broke even when I was breeding before, but if I was doing so now I'd loose my shirt.

I don't know that Id want to see a flood of chameleons at reptile shows, where they are put under stress and would frequently be bought be people who don't have the knowledge to care for them.

 

[Rango3d]

Hey dhm
I hear you. The last reptile shows I went to shorta sucked too. All snakes. No variety.
To make them better we must do our part.
I think next year I'm gonna set up a booth. Around my area.
Bring all my friendly chams. And have kids feed them silks and whatever under my supervision off coarse.
Just a fun booth for the family.

It's just an idea right now but I hope to make a reality.
Any ideas to add to that, that would be cool?