What Locale is my Panther?

I don't know why everyone can't let the other thread go. The OP is trying to be reasonable and civil (mostly) and everyone is still bashing him. Can we try a clean slate a little?

*sigh* This is what happens when you start on the wrong foot...people remember. We tried to tell you...
 
I'm gonn say Tamatave ,ambanja cross his face looks like my Tamatave and his side like an ambanja side.
 
reefercheefer said:
I seen that one too. hyperion or something was the name?. he was sick looking.
Click to expand...

I don't think you have been around here long enough to get what I was saying. Hyperion is AWESOME, a red bodied ambi. Problem is when you use WC females you never know what you have till they produce offspring and even then often you are not sure. Some breeders believe in using WC females often. When you do this often times you get some unusual offspring and most of the time you have already sold all the babies before they have colored up. All of this lends itself to "Ambilobes" that show pink and red, which most would say are crossed with a Ankaramy or 'pink panther'.

This comes back to the often talked about 'breeder ethics'

All that said your guy IMO isn't an ambilobe, What is he? Very unique that is for sure but I don't know if we will ever know for sure because we don't know where he came from. Was he CB? WC? Bred on a farm and then imported? From the sounds of it you bought him from some random person at an expo, since we know you don't believe in breeders.

Which goes back to one of your original threads about how stupid it is to buy from a breeder. Look at George, then look at Chase the cham in JonRich's avitar they are both from the same sire. Do they look the same? NO but I would take either one and happily anchor a breeding project with them and KNOW that they are pure and I can go back several generations photo documenting the line.
 
clarkrw3 said:
I don't think you have been around here long enough to get what I was saying. Hyperion is AWESOME, a red bodied ambi. Problem is when you use WC females you never know what you have till they produce offspring and even then often you are not sure. Some breeders believe in using WC females often. When you do this often times you get some unusual offspring and most of the time you have already sold all the babies before they have colored up. All of this lends itself to "Ambilobes" that show pink and red, which most would say are crossed with a Ankaramy or 'pink panther'.

This comes back to the often talked about 'breeder ethics'

All that said your guy IMO isn't an ambilobe, What is he? Very unique that is for sure but I don't know if we will ever know for sure because we don't know where he came from. Was he CB? WC? Bred on a farm and then imported? From the sounds of it you bought him from some random person at an expo, since we know you don't believe in breeders.

Which goes back to one of your original threads about how stupid it is to buy from a breeder. Look at George, then look at Chase the cham in JonRich's avitar they are both from the same sire. Do they look the same? NO but I would take either one and happily anchor a breeding project with them and KNOW that they are pure and I can go back several generations photo documenting the line.
Click to expand...

I can see what your about then with your breeding project. You would rather have a long paper/photo trail so you know all the true origins. Is that all breeding is about to this forum then? I guess it doesn't bother me as much not knowing what I have for sure. Most cham lines were originally WC at one point. All i can do is wait for the babies now. This really makes me not want to get rid of any of his first offspring til they show coloring so i dont give away any stunners. I dont have a problem selling WC off spring with an unknown locale. People can decide on the off spring themselves and wether they want to go that route. I guess its everyones preference. I think Chams should be sold by thier coloring not which mile of the island they came off. It seems that no one else would be for sure on most chameleons on what locale they are unless they were told by the breeder themselves. Its really hard to tell with the more colorful locales that hold a full spectrum. IMO
 
reefercheefer said:
I can see what your about then with your breeding project. You would rather have a long paper/photo trail so you know all the true origins. Is that all breeding is about to this forum then? I guess it doesn't bother me as much not knowing what I have for sure. Most cham lines were originally WC at one point. All i can do is wait for the babies now. This really makes me not want to get rid of any of his first offspring til they show coloring so i dont give away any stunners. I dont have a problem selling WC off spring with an unknown locale. People can decide on the off spring themselves and wether they want to go that route. I guess its everyones preference. I think Chams should be sold by thier coloring not which mile of the island they came off. It seems that no one else would be for sure on most chameleons on what locale they are unless they were told by the breeder themselves. Its really hard to tell with the more colorful locales that hold a full spectrum. IMO
Click to expand...

Whaaat? That was some random junk. So what your saying now is you dont care what locale they are or if they are crossed. A little while ago you were full bore arguing that the male was a pure ambi? :confused:

The ppl on this site do care. We like to know what we're getting because alot of us do breed on occasion and we like to keep OUR lines clean of crosses. As long as your honest and tell ppl that these babies are from unknown locale parents then its all good. You did your moral responsibility as the seller/breeder. Problem is if that cham is ever sold again. The buyer may not be as honest as you were in order to sell the cham. (thats really why most of us hate crosses) They can get resold as something they arent and really F up a persons breeding project.

Your cham is really beautiul and he's def unique. Thats why everyone is saying he's crossed. He is too unique, there simply arent any known ambi's out there that look like him. If you've got a unique cham like that you better have the bloodline lineage info on him/her to back up any claims of their locale origin. Otherwise ppl arent going to believe the cham is pure. Too many ppl get burned every yr on things like this. Jmpo
 
reefercheefer said:
I can see what your about then with your breeding project. You would rather have a long paper/photo trail so you know all the true origins. Is that all breeding is about to this forum then? I guess it doesn't bother me as much not knowing what I have for sure. Most cham lines were originally WC at one point. All i can do is wait for the babies now. This really makes me not want to get rid of any of his first offspring til they show coloring so i dont give away any stunners. I dont have a problem selling WC off spring with an unknown locale. People can decide on the off spring themselves and wether they want to go that route. I guess its everyones preference. I think Chams should be sold by thier coloring not which mile of the island they came off. It seems that no one else would be for sure on most chameleons on what locale they are unless they were told by the breeder themselves. Its really hard to tell with the more colorful locales that hold a full spectrum. IMO
Click to expand...

Nothing is wrong with what you're doing. But i have to say you are taking a gamble. Just label your offsprings as such (If they are, or a good possibility of being crosses. Either hold ALL of them till you can confirm, or sell as crosses as a "buyer beware"). This way breeders like Clark can avoid buying a cross to taint their bloodline, no matter how stunning your Chams may be.

Another point to take into consideration is keeping the Locals pure to preserve what's in nature (not to say there aren't any crosses in nature where some of the mainland Locals cross paths, which is probably what you have with your Amblianja). If everyone took the approach you have, which seems to be "roll the die, mix it all up and hope for something "stunning", then the Cham community will eventually take the path of BallPythons, Crestied Geckos and CornSnakes, except i don't think Chams are not het for anything particular oddball trait, it's up in the air what you will get...Have you ever seen or heard of an Albino Chameleon?

Guess what?!?! These SAME breeders that you have been bashing, have been doing it already for yearssssssssssssss. Only difference between you and them is that you don't have ANY records of what you are doing and don't seem to have the knowledge or care to do so. If everyone looked at breeding like you did then there would be a saturation of unknown locale Chams flooding the market mucking up the bloodlines that people work soo hard to preserve. All because you don't understand the consequence that your little science project can cause. Just take a look at the Kammer's site. Look through their lines and look at the percentages. That didn't happen overnight!! They didn't start with a cross. They took a pure Ambliobe, cross with a pure Ambanja and made a 50/50 cross. Then breed that with another cross to make a even more intense "designer" cross with the percentages to let the buyer and themselves know what that particular animal is.

That's a lottt of workk and dedication!! They keep pures for those breeders that want pures and crosses for maverick like yourself, or buyers wanting a trophy pet. That is the same breeder/s you are bashing. They seem pretty damn professional and responsible to me! You mentioned that no Cham will come out as stunning as the parent animals. Well this is the way you go about getting a head start on purchasing a Cham that has the BEST chance of what YOU want!!!

In short, support the breeders that have paved the way in a sense!
 
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reefercheefer said:
I can see what your about then with your breeding project. You would rather have a long paper/photo trail so you know all the true origins. Is that all breeding is about to this forum then? I guess it doesn't bother me as much not knowing what I have for sure. Most cham lines were originally WC at one point. All i can do is wait for the babies now. This really makes me not want to get rid of any of his first offspring til they show coloring so i dont give away any stunners. I dont have a problem selling WC off spring with an unknown locale. People can decide on the off spring themselves and wether they want to go that route. I guess its everyones preference. I think Chams should be sold by thier coloring not which mile of the island they came off. It seems that no one else would be for sure on most chameleons on what locale they are unless they were told by the breeder themselves. Its really hard to tell with the more colorful locales that hold a full spectrum. IMO
Click to expand...

See, that is an issue though. You may not care about their locales, but others do. (Why would you buy only ambilobes if you didn't care though?) If you had not posted these threads you may have never learned that your male doesn't appear to be a pure ambilobe. Then you would have sold off the offspring as pure ambilobes. Those people in turn would breed theirs and end up with unpure ambilobes. What would you have done once they realized that theirs weren't pure?

By the way, their coloring is generally dependent on which area they originated from. If you compare east coast locales to west coast locales they look very different.


The guy at the expo told me they were wild caught and had about 20 other chams there with him. I bought a male from him and the 2 females from jim.
Click to expand...


I'm still confused to if your male is WC or CB?
 
pssh said:
I'm still confused to if your male is WC or CB?
Click to expand...

Possibly CH like the clutch he currently has from his WC female from Jim. Its a slim chance that someone goes out collecting and finds 20+ Chams in the wild all the same age, that young.
 
possible sirama or sirama cross? Sirama is right by Ambilobe and if wc then would be easy to see the 2 possibly crossing territories?

I dunno since each cham is like a fingerprint, but he is a sharp cham none the less. Would think if he was a ambiXanja more ppl would be crossing them to get that look?

sirama-nachzucht-1.jpg
 
Wykd said:
possible sirama or sirama cross? Sirama is right by Ambilobe and if wc then would be easy to see the 2 possibly crossing territories?

I dunno since each cham is like a fingerprint, but he is a sharp cham none the less. Would think if he was a ambiXanja more ppl would be crossing them to get that look?

sirama-nachzucht-1.jpg
Click to expand...

niiice. This one actaully looks to be the closest color except mine still has the lighter body. Idk Ive spent 2-3 months looking for something thats as close as possible.
 
Have not read most of this thread due to time constraints
The OPs male is very interesting, quite lovely, but I think likely an ambj cross.

reefercheefer said:
dont worry ill take some better high quality ones. How to you post full size images on here?
Click to expand...

Start a post
Click the attachments (paperclip) icon - a new "manage attachements" window will open.
Browse to where you have the image file saved on your computer.
Click upload
Click to close the manage attachements window.
Use the drop down arrow next to the attachements icon to insert image(s) within whatever text you want to type, or do nothing and they will be added as thumbnails at the end of your post that we can click on for a larger image.

alternative:
upload your images to your own picture album on this site, then insert a link to the images in your post using the Insert Image icon (they will come into the post full size)
 
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reefercheefer said:
...... You would rather have a long paper/photo trail so you know all the true origins. Is that all breeding is about to this forum then? ............ Its really hard to tell with the more colorful locales that hold a full spectrum. IMO
Click to expand...

I also don't know much about telling the locales, but I can see that yours is 'unusual-looking' for an ambilobe. I also know which people on here are very good on telling one locale from another. I have no problem with crosses at all, but yours is probably not 'pure' ambilobe. Don't sell them as 'pure' pedigree animals and then you will not have the problem the big breeders have of making loads of money from them. Everybodys happpy :)
Some people really care about how pure a bloodline is, others don't and will just look at the pretty colors - there is room in the hobby for us and the big breeders :)
 
Didn't read the whole thread.. just wanted to throw in my 2 cents~

I have gone to a few of the expo's around the chicagoland area... and there is one breeder in specific who I find to be a little on the "shady" side. When I came up to his booth, he had 3 female chameleons in a 18x18x30 cage WITH an adult, 2yrs+ Male Ambanja. When I asked him what he had/prices, he said xxxx dollars for the females. And when I asked if he had any ambilobe females, he said "oh yeah, that one on the lower right of the cage is ambilobe." Magic.. all the sudden. Poof~ ambilobe. Then I asked for a photo of the sire, well... he didn't have one.

so... just on a side note--- sometimes everything at an expo isn't what they seem. That's why I dont buy unless I know their reputation.. especially with females. Females are too easy to mix up locales.

That being said... even though the guy told you it was an ambilobe-- it looks like it has Ambanja mixed in, as I have yet to see a pure Ambilobe with that patterning--- JMHO~
 
Texas Panther Man said:
Whaaat? That was some random junk. So what your saying now is you dont care what locale they are or if they are crossed. A little while ago you were full bore arguing that the male was a pure ambi? :confused:

The ppl on this site do care. We like to know what we're getting because alot of us do breed on occasion and we like to keep OUR lines clean of crosses. As long as your honest and tell ppl that these babies are from unknown locale parents then its all good. You did your moral responsibility as the seller/breeder. Problem is if that cham is ever sold again. The buyer may not be as honest as you were in order to sell the cham. (thats really why most of us hate crosses) They can get resold as something they arent and really F up a persons breeding project.

Your cham is really beautiul and he's def unique. Thats why everyone is saying he's crossed. He is too unique, there simply arent any known ambi's out there that look like him. If you've got a unique cham like that you better have the bloodline lineage info on him/her to back up any claims of their locale origin. Otherwise ppl arent going to believe the cham is pure. Too many ppl get burned every yr on things like this. Jmpo
Click to expand...
I second that
 
JonRich said:
Nothing is wrong with what you're doing. But i have to say you are taking a gamble. Just label your offsprings as such (If they are, or a good possibility of being crosses. Either hold ALL of them till you can confirm, or sell as crosses as a "buyer beware"). This way breeders like Clark can avoid buying a cross to taint their bloodline, no matter how stunning your Chams may be.

Another point to take into consideration is keeping the Locals pure to preserve what's in nature (not to say there aren't any crosses in nature where some of the mainland Locals cross paths, which is probably what you have with your Amblianja). If everyone took the approach you have, which seems to be "roll the die, mix it all up and hope for something "stunning", then the Cham community will eventually take the path of BallPythons, Crestied Geckos and CornSnakes, except i don't think Chams are not het for anything particular oddball trait, it's up in the air what you will get...Have you ever seen or heard of an Albino Chameleon?

Guess what?!?! These SAME breeders that you have been bashing, have been doing it already for yearssssssssssssss. Only difference between you and them is that you don't have ANY records of what you are doing and don't seem to have the knowledge or care to do so. If everyone looked at breeding like you did then there would be a saturation of unknown locale Chams flooding the market mucking up the bloodlines that people work soo hard to preserve. All because you don't understand the consequence that your little science project can cause. Just take a look at the Kammer's site. Look through their lines and look at the percentages. That didn't happen overnight!! They didn't start with a cross. They took a pure Ambliobe, cross with a pure Ambanja and made a 50/50 cross. Then breed that with another cross to make a even more intense "designer" cross with the percentages to let the buyer and themselves know what that particular animal is.

That's a lottt of workk and dedication!! They keep pures for those breeders that want pures and crosses for maverick like yourself, or buyers wanting a trophy pet. That is the same breeder/s you are bashing. They seem pretty damn professional and responsible to me! You mentioned that no Cham will come out as stunning as the parent animals. Well this is the way you go about getting a head start on purchasing a Cham that has the BEST chance of what YOU want!!!

In short, support the breeders that have paved the way in a sense!
Click to expand...

Thank you Jon. God bless your soul for saving me the typing.
 
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