What more can I do to encourage WC to eat?

[jajeanpierre]

I picked up my young male Trioceros q. quadricornis late December 30th directly from the importer.

He's definitely been drinking as I have found nice white urates a couple of times. I have yet to find any stool. His enclosure is jammed with two bushy umbrella trees, so they could be hidden in the leaves.

I know he has eaten at least two crickets since he arrived because I saw him eat two the second day I had him. I think there are less crickets in the enclosure than I've put in. I can only find the odd small dead one.

The shipment arrived from Cameroon mid December. Others on this forum have quads from the same shipment and found them loaded with parasites. I wormed him yesterday with Panacur. He seems to be holding his weight. He was 36 grams the night I brought him home, 40 grams a couple of days later after drinking a lot and 39 grams today. (I know--leave him alone!)

I'll follow up with fecal checks, but the consensus of the breeding cooperative who bought a large group was to worm him asap as the parasite load was extremely heavy.

He seemed to cope well with the worming yesterday, and I saw him drinking shortly after I put him back in the cage.

I've offered him some roaches in a yogurt cup high in his cage but he has ignored them. I've left them there since the day after he arrived but took them out today to feed them up to offer to him some other time. He'll eat them or I'll dispose of them (worried about parasite/disease transmission).

Do I just leave him alone and let him figure out his new life?

As I put that question mark on the above sentence, I heard a snap, looked up to see a cricket being snatched up by him. So, he is eating even if I haven't found any stool.

I still would like some advice on getting him to eat more. He is on the thin side. Other than the obvious advice of leave him alone (which is killing me to follow), what can I do to encourage him to eat more? Should I try to catch some big flies? I had my veileds outside for sun yesterday and the female was in heaven snatching up some flies. Should I worry about salmonella with the flies since I have chickens free ranging in my yard?

Thanks for any tips on getting this boy settled into his new life in captivity.

 

[rshewfel]

Sounds like you know what to do. Leave him alone! Ha ha. Anyway with my wild caughts, I keep them in a cage with barriers from the rest of the room. I want them to feel as if they are alone, even when I am in the room. Use an automated misting system, and just throw in a few crickets each day. You can try and peek to see if he is eating. If you don't see him eat I would not be overly concerned. It is encouraging that you already have. You can treat him for parasites now or later, there are arguments for both ways. I personally don't see a need to wait.

It may not be what you want to here but, just leave him alone. You are more likely to kill a healthy wild-caught, by worrying, and disturbing him, then you are to save a sick one. Let him settle in. If the conditions are right, he will most likely pull through.

 

[kplatvoet]

I don't have any experiences with wild caught chameleons - I am hoping he does well -
If your thinking flies - you can order bluebottle's online from mantisplace.com - get yourself some of the fly food at the same time and put some pupae in a screened cup with some and sit it on top of one of your cages - they usually hatch in about 4 days or so- probably quicker if it warm enough for your guys to go outside where you are.
Mantisplace has pupae or spikes - I usually get some of each as the spikes last longer - it usually takes about 4 or 5 days to turn them into pupae.

 

[rshewfel]

Offer him whatever you want. I use mainly crickets at first because they will climb up towards the heat light, especially in mountain species. I'm sure flies would be fine. Just don't sit there and watch him.

 

[DanSB]

In my experience variety is the best way to coax a picky eater. If it was me I would offer: Black Soldier Fly larvae (phoenix worms) and freshly hatched flies (nutritional value is debatable but they have long fluttering wings and trigger a good feeding response). Then the suite of other delicious larvae such as butterworms, hornworms, or silkworms may trigger a response. Again the trick is to find out what really triggers a feeding response.

With that said I know very little about quads and their acclimation habits but the above approach has worked on Senegal's for me on other picky chams.

 

[rshewfel]

I just read some of your other posts. If you have been in touch with the "quad group", do what they tell you to do. The worst thing you can do is ask for public opinion.

Personally, I think you should buy the cb male listed in the classifieds, and sell this guy to an experienced keeper.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I know--LEAVE HIM ALONE--but it is just killing me.

He's in my office five feet in front of my computer looking down on me. I probably should just put up some sort of semi opaque cloth across the front but I just can't bring myself to do it. I KNOW it is the right thing, but I just can't do it.

The plan was for him to go into a spare bedroom, but I picked him up earlier than I expected, and the spare bedroom is occupied for the holidays.

Worse, the automatic misting system I ordered hasn't arrive. I expected it well before he arrived, so I have to open his cage and mist many, many times a day. That part I'm doing well since the urates are white.

He does have really dense foliage to hide in if he wants, but he is often at the top in the front right out in the open. There are places at the back of the cage that have a fair amount of foliage that are the same distance away from the basking light, but he often chooses to be in the open. I've got a little bushy parlor palm that I'm going to hook up on one of the hangers (he's in a DrangonStrand breeder cage) where he tends to hang out that will hide him from my eyes and still allow him to be there. I'll do it tomorrow when I have to open his cage to mist him. He might choose to be out in the open for subtle reasons I don't pick up on, and being out in the open might still be stressful even if that's where he chooses to be.

I've attached a picture of him I just took. Really lousy picture but it will give you an idea. He's in the top left in the front of the cage. He often is on the bendy vines that run across the front, and often on the right side right out in the open. There are bendy vines at the back with some foliage between the vine and the front. I think I should put that parlor palm in the front right corner. The only heat is a 60w incandescent bulb in the right back corner. There are places he could go that would be the same height and the same distance away from the heat but with more cover.

Am I okay or should I put more stuff in? It is really dense in the bottom two thirds, but the top third is more open.

Thanks.

Sounds like you know what to do. Leave him alone! Ha ha. Anyway with my wild caughts, I keep them in a cage with barriers from the rest of the room. I want them to feel as if they are alone, even when I am in the room. Use an automated misting system, and just throw in a few crickets each day. You can try and peek to see if he is eating. If you don't see him eat I would not be overly concerned. It is encouraging that you already have. You can treat him for parasites now or later, there are arguments for both ways. I personally don't see a need to wait.

It may not be what you want to here but, just leave him alone. You are more likely to kill a healthy wild-caught, by worrying, and disturbing him, then you are to save a sick one. Let him settle in. If the conditions are right, he will most likely pull through.

 

[rshewfel]

I know--LEAVE HIM ALONE--but it is just killing me.

He's in my office five feet in front of my computer looking down on me. I probably should just put up some sort of semi opaque cloth across the front but I just can't bring myself to do it. I KNOW it is the right thing, but I just can't do it.

The plan was for him to go into a spare bedroom, but I picked him up earlier than I expected, and the spare bedroom is occupied for the holidays.

Worse, the automatic misting system I ordered hasn't arrive. I expected it well before he arrived, so I have to open his cage and mist many, many times a day. That part I'm doing well since the urates are white.

He does have really dense foliage to hide in if he wants, but he is often at the top in the front right out in the open. There are places at the back of the cage that have a fair amount of foliage that are the same distance away from the basking light, but he often chooses to be in the open. I've got a little bushy parlor palm that I'm going to hook up on one of the hangers (he's in a DrangonStrand breeder cage) where he tends to hang out that will hide him from my eyes and still allow him to be there. I'll do it tomorrow when I have to open his cage to mist him. He might choose to be out in the open for subtle reasons I don't pick up on, and being out in the open might still be stressful even if that's where he chooses to be.

I've attached a picture of him I just took. Really lousy picture but it will give you an idea. He's in the top left in the front of the cage. He often is on the bendy vines that run across the front, and often on the right side right out in the open. There are bendy vines at the back with some foliage between the vine and the front. I think I should put that parlor palm in the front right corner. The only heat is a 60w incandescent bulb in the right back corner. There are places he could go that would be the same height and the same distance away from the heat but with more cover.

Am I okay or should I put more stuff in? It is really dense in the bottom two thirds, but the top third is more open.

Thanks.

You have got to be kidding me! Experienced quad keepers tell you not to disturb him, and you turn him into an office display pet. If you don't care about the right thing to do, quit waisting everyone's time. Maybe you don't understand that he will die.

 

[deerharvester]

Cup feeding a fresh wc doesn't work out to well usually. You need to have a fecal sent off asap, panacur only covers certain parasites (more common ones). I've gotten several wcs That had Amoebiasis, and have also encountered coccidia. Let him feed free range for a while b4 you cup feed, at least until he's acclimated. And, as many others said give him his space.

Scott

 

[jajeanpierre]

Cup feeding a fresh wc doesn't work out to well usually. You need to have a fecal sent off asap, panacur only covers certain parasites (more common ones). I've gotten several wcs That had Amoebiasis, and have also encountered coccidia. Let him feed free range for a while b4 you cup feed, at least until he's acclimated. And, as many others said give him his space.

Scott

Thanks Scott.

I understand that but from the other people who have received a lot of this shipment, the parasite load is really huge. The consensus is to worm sooner rather than later, or he might be dead by the time I get around to getting a fecal.

At this point, I'm just trying to reduce his parasite load. I'll get around to completely eliminating the parasites later. I expect I'll have many, many fecals done on him before we are done. I do not consider Panacur the end of his parasite problem, just the beginning.

I knew intellectually that he is fragile. I've dealt with capture myopathy in other species, I've dealt with freshly wild-caught parrots, and do understand some of the stresses he is facing. I just want to do right by this wonderful creature.

 

[fluxlizard]

Yes- panacur will not cut it. At the very least he needs to also be treated for flagylites.

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have got to be kidding me! Experienced quad keepers tell you not to disturb him, and you turn him into an office display pet. If you don't care about the right thing to do, quit waisting everyone's time. Maybe you don't understand that he will die.

My office is my chameleon room. It is the quietest place in my house.

Asking for opinions of people who have acclimated wild caughts to captivity is not the worst thing I could do. Far from it.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Yes- panacur will not cut it. At the very least he needs to also be treated for flagylites.

He probably needs to be treated with a lot of different meds to deal with his parasite load. I need to actually FIND a fecal sample to take in for testing. So far I haven't found one and rooting around his cage looking for one is not what he needs right now. Laurie, who is one of the big organizers of the cooperative group who bought so many of this shipment, has been advising me, and she strongly recommended that I worm him immediately with Panacur to reduce the parasite load.

There is no way that I will be worming him with every medication that he needs to get rid of whatever parasites he has all at once. I'm worried that just the Panacur will cause a massive roundworm die off and block his gut.

It seems I've ruffled some feathers. My goal was to get other people's experiences so I could get an understanding of what I was facing and how to make it easier for him. Forgive my excitement and joy in having him.

 

[rshewfel]

My office is my chameleon room. It is the quietest place in my house.

Asking for opinions of people who have acclimated wild caughts to captivity is not the worst thing I could do. Far from it.

If your office is the quietest place in your house, I apologize. The way you worded it made me think otherwise.

It just seams to me that you have already been told by very experienced keepers what to do. The forum here is full of people that give advice when they should not. It can become very confusing for an individual who is seeking help.

I was in no way trying to be rude. It can get very tiring watching people kill their chameleons because they bought something they were not expecting.

 

[rshewfel]

One other thing. There is nothing wrong with wanting a chameleon for a pet. However, if that is what you were looking for, you picked the wrong chameleon. This chameleon will need special care for a while.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Janet,
You have hiding spaces in the cage so he can choose what level of exposure he wants. If he chooses to sit up top then that is his choice and a very good sign. When given gradient choices, chameleons do a good job taking care of their needs. If he is sitting out in the open (as he is in the picture) then your environment is not stressing him out. If he stays in the open when you walk in the room and do whatever you do in your office then he is comfortable with the level of activity in his room.
Here are some signs of a stressed or scared chameleon

• Climbing walls (doesn't like his environment or situation)
• Swiveling behind his perching branch when you come near (not a cause for worry. This is natural)
• Closed eyes (vet immediately)
• Hiding in the dense foliage (no need to worry. But know he is scared)

The best thing you can do is hydrate him excessively. Food intake is the first step to producing fecal matter. Hydration will get it out of him. He is eating so you have the first one down. Just keep spraying the cage down until he stops drinking (he may take a minute to start). Alternately, you can stick a tree in the shower stall and give him a long, only slightly warm shower.

All medicine will produce stress on his system both in effect and the administration of it. I give only what is needed to my animals. Others shotgun their animals with certain regimens. With your level of experience following vet directions is your best bet. The fecals done on other members of the import group showed only nematodes (worms treated with Panacur), but it is, of course, possible yours has a different collection of parasites. So a fecal on yours is critical (as you have noted).

The fact that he is eating is a good sign. Let him eat at his own pace. Just keep offering food on a daily basis. Variety is a bonus as each chameleon has their own taste and some things, like flies, may be exciting for him.

Your best way to monitor his growth is to weigh him on a weekly basis. His weight will fluctuate just like it does with us, but if you notice a downward trend then it is justification for corrective action.

At this time, your best gauge of health is his eyes. If they are open and alert then just let him continue settling in. If his eyes are half closed or all the way closed during the day it is time for an immediate trip to the vet. Until that point, you serve him best by hydration and offering gut loaded food.


Bill

 

[OldChamKeeper]

I don't see anybody from the Quad collective posting as of yet. I know more than a few of us posted to help in another thread.


All I'm going to do is share what I have going on with my animal from the very same shipment you got your extremely nice one from. Take what you want you want from it. Nice set up by the way.

The fecals from this shipment were taken to Dr. Greek. You know, a serious reptile vet who has earned my respect as well as many others with exotic animals. His office prescribed one medication so far. Panacur. Nothing else in the fecals so far has warranted any other meds being prescribed. I know from many many past imports that giving both Panacur and Flagyl at the same time can cause issues in a weakened import. There are also instances where it won't cause issues. However for my animal I'm not giving both at the same time. I'm giving my animal three doses of Panacur over six weeks while monitoring her. Her first dose was a bit of paste on a cricket which she ate and gave me the look of "WTF is this American crap you call food?"

She is isolated from all other animals and has "Ebola" taped across her cage just in case the other animals in my reptile room can read. I know other parasites were present on this shipment, specifically a bright cherry red thing that looks like a mite but is actually far worse. Be sure to look for those under the chin around the eyes or armpits. Any folds in the skin are where they like to hide. I have precautions in place just for crawlers like these which involve a deep moat infested with piranha. My Q measures are elaborate.....


My animal is eating about 3 gut loaded crickets a day. She only eats them when I let them go one at a time across a screen where she will swing out and hit them from. She grabbed a dubia this way as well. She ate a few tomato worms I left on a branch within reach. She doesn't like cup feeders. I have only put some multi vitamin power on three food items in total since she arrived as I don't want to overdose her. The gut loaded feeders are fine at this point. Water is a bigger deal.

She is hooked up to my Mist King system. So she gets a few 5 min mistings per day plus a few 1 min mistings. I don't rely on that for her to drink however. I have a dripper that gets filled once a day and drips for about 25 mins. I've seen her drink from that and overall she does not show any of the signs of dehydration.

Unlike you, I have not weighed mine. I'm leaving it alone for the first month. I would intelligently place her weight at 20-25g currently.

She hides in the back, uses her plants for cover. She's in a Q unit so all her plants are plastic and the branches are artificial. I can sterilize things as needed and I don't have to worry about her fecal samples landing in a potted plant possibly (super small chance) and re-infecting her later if a feeder walked across it or such.


Temps are 78-82 during the day, 75+ at night. I like to keep it stable with fresh imports.

 

[Mike Fisher]

Sounds like you're doing alright with what you've got, although the hand spraying will stress him out. New imports prefer dripping compared to misting, so if you can set that up asap he'll adjust easier. The main thing is gonna be hydration, since imports are always dehydrated, and the fact that you medicated him before getting him well hydrated makes it even more important. Medicating them while dehydrated is hard on the kidneys and liver.

In the meantime, hand misting might not cut it.

Some of these WC are so thirsty that they will take water from a syringe by hand. So you might try that until your automated drip system shows up. I have one Cameroon T. perreti female that I'm hydrating that way right now in addition to her drip system. I just get a drop started in front of her nose and she will go right for it and drink her fill. Yes, of course avoid stress but not at the expense of treatment. You'll know by body language if you are stressing him out.

And get some flagyl but wait to treat until he is hydrated.

 

[jajeanpierre]

One other thing. There is nothing wrong with wanting a chameleon for a pet. However, if that is what you were looking for, you picked the wrong chameleon. This chameleon will need special care for a while.

What chameleon doesn't need special care? I would not consider a chameleon a pet.

 

[Mike Fisher]

I would not consider a chameleon a pet.

A lot of people around here do, but that's a whole different subject.