What Par reading for panther

[Snakebit05]

Hello, new to forum and looking to get a panther chameleon in future. So I’ve been in the saltwater hoppy going on 15 years now and what I have learned is that planning ahead and making the best environment possible and doing it right from the start you will receive way better results. I have a great grasp on lighting and par readings as this is crucial when keeping corals. Some need more par than others so you place them at different levels in tank. I am in the planning stage of the build as I’m very OCD and want the best environment possible for my new arrival. I have numerous high intensity lights left over from when I’ve upgraded lights for my corals. I have a Kessil H380 grow light I don’t use for my refugium anymore and was thinking of going with it. It covers around 24x24 without any problem, and will produce plenty of UV for panther and live plants but just wondering if anybody knows what par value we’re looking for when dealing with Chameleons. I have a par meter also and can dial in the desired needs but don’t know if it needs to be 200 or 2000 at the top point in terrarium and of course the bottom of tank will be a little less. This is a very expensive light and high quality led light and will be ideal I just want to make sure I’m not over doing it. Thanks guys and look forward to learning alot on the forum.

 

[cyberlocc]

Chameleons have 4 cones of vision. They can see UVA, including the non visible to us portions.

Your kessils do not provide that spectrum. They provide visible UVA.

The chameleon Also needs UVB, which again your Kessils do not provide.

All that is too say, your Kessils will not work alone. You will still need a T5HO UVB reptile light. As well as a basking light for heat.

As far as using the Kessils, for plant light and general lighting. Yes they are fine.

The chameleon, would prefer a brightly lit cage surely. Other than that, they are not that picky, so Par needs at each area, are going to come down to your plants, just like it would with your corals.

 

[Snakebit05]

I’m reading and it says the new h380 has UV chips in it, are you saying it doesn’t provide uvb because you know this for a fact or assuming because most grow lights don’t come with a UV chip. Or is the UV chip there referring to produce uva? Here’s from there site “As an added bonus to this light, the full spectrum is enhanced by the addition of UV chips which add light wavelengths that mimic that of the sun. Just trying to see if this light will work for both plants and get the little guy the uvb he needs. I understand I will need to also have a light for basking as this light doesn’t produce any heat.

 

[Snakebit05]

Found this on a fly trap forum, so now I’m thinking this will be a good light to take care of uvb needs for chameleon and live plant needs as well.
“The only LED on the market that mimics the sun, with true UV, is Kessil. I should be a salesman for them right?
All other LEDs like to advertise they have UV, but in reality, they only have the coloration of UV to mimic the black light type effect.”

 

[cyberlocc]

Found this on a fly trap forum, so now I’m thinking this will be a good light to take care of uvb needs for chameleon and live plant needs as well.
“The only LED on the market that mimics the sun, with true UV, is Kessil. I should be a salesman for them right?
All other LEDs like to advertise they have UV, but in reality, they only have the coloration of UV to mimic the black light type effect.”

LEDs work on very limited spectra. They only deal in 10nm chunks usually, I will look into the light to be sure, but I can almost gaurntee that they do not generate UVB. A UVB diode is 50 dollars each, for that one diode, of which you would need alot.

There is a Chinese UVB light now, and its still not there yet for our needs. The UV is weak, the spread is bad, the intensity in direct center is too high, everywhere else its worthless.

The time is coming that UVB leds will exist, but they will be extremely expensive, and they will need to be strips.


I'm not sure what that statement means. "they only have the coloration of UV to mimic the black light type effect." a black light is a UVA light, that is why it causes objects to glow, that is what a reptiles 4th cone allows, they can see UVA, down to 350ish, and it causes objects like their prey to glow for them, like a black light does, but more intense, and without altering color.

The Black light, is the visible range of UVA, which allows a slight glow, but by pumping a serious amount of that spectra, they can causes objects to glow more than that spectra normally would, and give you a dose of what having a 4th cone is like.

 

[cyberlocc]

Well that was easy.

As you can see, it has some spikes in the 365 range, which is good for reptile vision. It has zero UVB, which would be 290-320 range. Your reptile HAS TO HAVE UVB to survive. They need the UVB to create D3, that allows them to process calcium.

This light, also implores the idea that plants only require Red, and Blue spectrum's to grow and thrive. This has been proven as fallacy a long time ago. They utilize Blue, and Red more than Green and Yellow, for a Green or Yellow leafed plant, but they still use Green and Yellow.

Your reptile is not going to be happy living under a purple light, which that thing is, no. That is semi okay, for growing plants, and I wouldn't even use it for that. However it is not suitable at all for a reptile cage.

"The only LED on the market that mimics the sun, with true UV, is Kessil. "

Ya not even close, not in anyway whatsoever period. There is an LED that mimics the sun, out now. It still does not have much UVA below 400nm, and has ZERO UVB, but it does mimic the Suns actual Visual Spectrum, very well actually, its the Phillips Tri R, here is a Video for the "Sunlike" made with the Tri R.

And a purple light, is NOTHING like the sun.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I wanted to use my cree set up from my reef. Same thought pattern.
But it is not meant to be.

I hope one day they come out with uvb leds. But I am not real sure the science behind how uvb is created in a man made light lite.

 

[Snakebit05]

Have to hand it to you cyberlocc you know your stuff and am glad someone on here Could help me out. I found my new home. Sure was wishing the light would work the way I was thinking as it is a really nice piece. Not going to waste the light to grow plants in Terrarium it was a little to pricey. One more question, I have an extra Radion G4 Pro from my 300 gallon build, it says it has 8 UV led’s and I can turn off and on the different leds to mimic the visual colors I want along with intensity, so I can keep on just UV and white lights or mix if wanted and this thing was upwards of $800 so if any would be able to produce uvb I’d assume this would be the one. But don’t know if it’s the same wave lengths as the kessil. Where it’s really not producing enough uvb. I have all these nice lights just laying around so wanted to use one if it would work. “LED has a huge spike in the 450nm royal blue wavelengths with a bump in the 380-400nm ultraviolet range of light which is almost as powerful as the regular blue light! From the initial press release we know that there will be overlapping ranges of UV wavelength with at least two colors of emitters pairing up to cover the 400-410 and 410-420nm range.” I’m thinking from your last post that the wave llength is around the same as kessil but it has more uv leds so didn’t know if that would help.

 

[cyberlocc]

Have to hand it to you cyberlocc you know your stuff and am glad someone on here Could help me out. I found my new home. Sure was wishing the light would work the way I was thinking as it is a really nice piece. Not going to waste the light to grow plants in Terrarium it was a little to pricey. One more question, I have an extra Radion G4 Pro from my 300 gallon build, it says it has 8 UV led’s and I can turn off and on the different leds to mimic the visual colors I want along with intensity, so I can keep on just UV and white lights or mix if wanted and this thing was upwards of $800 so if any would be able to produce uvb I’d assume this would be the one. But don’t know if it’s the same wave lengths as the kessil. Where it’s really not producing enough uvb. I have all these nice lights just laying around so wanted to use one if it would work. “LED has a huge spike in the 450nm royal blue wavelengths with a bump in the 380-400nm ultraviolet range of light which is almost as powerful as the regular blue light! From the initial press release we know that there will be overlapping ranges of UV wavelength with at least two colors of emitters pairing up to cover the 400-410 and 410-420nm range.” I’m thinking from your last post that the wave llength is around the same as kessil but it has more uv leds so didn’t know if that would help.

Yep, Radion is also not going to produce UVB .

UVB is kind of damaging to plants, so no reason to add it, the pot guys, want to damage the flowers, to increase chemical content, so they do use UVB, but other than that, not many plants really make use of it. Also Water filters, a lot of Shortwave UV (UVB) out, so the reef plants defiantly do not use it.

The Radion would be great, for plant and general cage lighting, still going to have to have the T5 UVB bulb though.

 

[skoram]

I’m reading and it says the new h380 has UV chips in it, are you saying it doesn’t provide uvb because you know this for a fact or assuming because most grow lights don’t come with a UV chip. Or is the UV chip there referring to produce uva? Here’s from there site “As an added bonus to this light, the full spectrum is enhanced by the addition of UV chips which add light wavelengths that mimic that of the sun. Just trying to see if this light will work for both plants and get the little guy the uvb he needs. I understand I will need to also have a light for basking as this light doesn’t produce any heat.

You should listen to @cyberlocc. He is one of the top experts on lighting, especially LED lighting, I have seen anywhere, not just on these forums. I did planted aquariums for about 10 years and was active on the planted tank forums and he is more hardcore than even the experts over there.

Having stated that, everything he said is 100% correct and matches even what is said on Kessil's own H380 page.

To fully grasp his comments, it may be helpful to do some additional research about UV lighting and specifically what is required for chameleons and reptiles in general. There is not just one type of "UV" light and to say that a product provides "UV" or "has UV chips" is next to meaningless for reptile-keeping purposes. As a reefer I'm sure you know that not all "white" light is the same. Not all blues or reds or purples are the same. Likewise with UV. UV comprises all light with wavelengths from 10 nm to 400 nm, most of which is invisible to the human eye. This can be further broken down into UVC (100-280 nm), UVB (280-315 nm) and UVA (315-400 nm). The tail end of UVA from 380-400nm is visible to humans as violet light.

Based on the H380 spectral graph shown on Kessil's site, we can see that the H380 does seem to include low amounts of UVA between 360? and 400 nm:

On the other hand, chameleons need BOTH UVB and UVA. Not just any UVB, but UVB specifically with wavelengths between 290 and 300 nm required to sythesize vitamin D3 which they need in order to absorb calcium into their bodies. And not just any UVA, but non-visible UVA (in addition to visible UVA), neither of which the Kessil H380 provide based on the graph above.

It would make absolutely no sense practically and economically for this Kessil H380 to have UVB or non-visible UVA as UVB LEDs are relatively new, extremely expensive (currently $50-60 for a single diode with very low LM per W) and totally unnecessary for plant growth which is what this product targets.

There is really only one good option UVB/UVA option for chameleons right now - T5HO linear tubes made by ether ZooMed (Reptisun) or Arcadia - and they are an absolute necessity. I consider myself to be a pretty hardcore LEDer with several DIY COB builds (but not in the same league with @cyberlocc ) and am eagerly awaiting a good UVB/UVA LED option, but there is really nothing good on the table just yet.

 

[Snakebit05]

Well I tried and am out of lights lol. What would be your suggestion on the best quality uvb light and what length would you go with out of the options available out there for a 24x24x48 terrarium. I feel yall know your stuff and will go with what yall think is best.

 

[cyberlocc]

Well I tried and am out of lights lol. What would be your suggestion on the best quality uvb light and what length would you go with out of the options available out there for a 24x24x48 terrarium. I feel yall know your stuff and will go with what yall think is best.

Arcadia 22inch UVB 6% T5HO.

Its not bright, its not going to grow plants, you will still need more lights than just that. Your Radion and the T5 would be great.

That is what I was saying your fish lights will still be great, I push 40k lumens worth of COBs, on top of my 4ft UVB light on my large viv.

I liked the way Roman put it on Reptile Lighting, think of your lights for a chameleon like a stereo.

Your Basking light is like a Tweeter, its loud, its sharp, and you kind of wish it would blend better. this is going to be a standard incan or halogen bulb, its only job is to create a hot spot for the animal to bask.

Your UVB t5, is like the mids, they are there, they are not that noticeable, nothing really stands out. You need them, but they defiantly are not jumping out at you.

Your Grow lights are your Woofers, they are Flashy, in your Face, and taking care of the business at hand . They drown out everything else that is going on, and provide that chill down your spine when the gunshots happen in the movie.



If I were you, what I would do is this.

Run the Radion, you said it has a ramping schedule right? Most of the radions I have seen do.
7:00am, Radions turn on. They start nice and warm, redish light, 2700kish like the morning sun. They ramp up, to 50-60% of the light by 7:30, and begin moving to 6500k (a cool white) at the same brightness the red light was at
7:30am, Basking light turns on, its also 2700-3000k, its so low light, you barely notice it flip on, if at all.
9:00am your lights, are white white now, and at 75-80% of maximum power, flip the T5 UV light on, again, you will hardly notice if at all.
12:00am the lights have now hit 100% full power.
Add misting dim here if you want it.
Do everything above, in reverse, to have lights off at 7pm.

If you do this, use a Arcadia 12% bulb to make up for the less UV time.

 

[skoram]

Well I tried and am out of lights lol. What would be your suggestion on the best quality uvb light and what length would you go with out of the options available out there for a 24x24x48 terrarium. I feel yall know your stuff and will go with what yall think is best.

Here you go:

24" fixture: https://www.amazon.com/Sunblaster-9...1_4?keywords=sunblaster&qid=1583375616&sr=8-4

UVB T5HO tube: http://www.lllreptile.com/products/35821-arcadia-d3-6-uvb-t5-bulb--22

ZooMed Reptisun 5.0 will work fine as well but most people report that Arcadia tubes last much longer before they need to be replaced.

 

[Snakebit05]

Thanks a lot for the help cyberlocc, might sale the Radion to fund the new endeavor and use the kessil. But man the Radion sure would be nice. Here’s my big tank with 4 G4 pros at 35% intensity. Was going to use 5 and face vertically but 4 was plenty, kept the other for another build.