What the heck is going on here??!!

[jajeanpierre]

I walked past the cage and found this!

These are two baby wild caught quads. The male is an itty bitty little thing, all of 36g. He weighed 13g when I bought him February 26. He didn't even have any horns. He's just a baby.

The female weighs 51g. She weighed 21g when I bought her on the same day. Both were imported the first week of February.

They stayed like that for the longest time. She has a pretty docile temperament but he will fling himself into space if I am near. They stayed together for the longest time, and when they moved off, they are sticking pretty close.

They've been housed together because cages had been back ordered and they were gaining a good weight and doing well. I just left it. I had been told by an experienced breeder that males will not breed until they are about 12". He's nowhere near that size. He was 27g two weeks ago. Breeding was far, far from my mind.

I guess I had better get myself another cage pdq. Should I leave them together until the cage arrives if they are not stressed or pull him out immediately. I don't believe they have actually bred.

Is that picture just a coincidence of him climbing over top of her and then both freezing because I was looking?

 

[Scout]

Hahahaha! Looks like their wrestling.. And daddy's winning..

 

[Dooley1]

Not babies anymore

 

[Trace]

I don’t believe they bred because she isn’t covered in love scratches and he is in the wrong position so I think co-incidence for this particular photo. However her body language (tail raised in the air, nice colours etc) make me think she might be amenable to certain ideas. Wink wink.

I had better luck with my montanes if I kept the males visually separate from the females for a few months leading up to breeding season. The males were VERY eager to perform once the ladies re-appeared.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I don’t believe they bred because she isn’t covered in love scratches and he is in the wrong position so I think co-incidence for this particular photo. However her body language (tail raised in the air, nice colours etc) make me think she might be amenable to certain ideas. Wink wink.

I had better luck with my montanes if I kept the males visually separate from the females for a few months leading up to breeding season. The males were VERY eager to perform once the ladies re-appeared.

I don't think they bred either, but I was sure surprised. And, ya, I noticed she seemed quite happy to stay there with her tail raised.

I ended up housing them together for a variety of reasons. First, the cages were not available (back ordered) and the import arrived months earlier than the importer expected. There was't going to be another shipment for a long, long time. It was buy them now or maybe never.

I also read of a breeder (was it breeders?) complaining that they had captive bred males that simply wouldn't breed but had never had a wild caught turn down a female. There was some article I read about some benefit to raising chameleons together. On the chance there was a social benefit to the male being raised with other chameleons combined with cages not available, I kept them together. They've been doing really well, both gaining weight at the same rate as the singly housed, similarly sized females are.

I'll order a new enclosure today.

Question: Suppose this isn't a coincidence and the female is acting receptive, will her being exposed to this male stimulate the production of eggs? I don't want eggs for awhile--I would really like them to be a lot bigger. They just seem like such babies to me.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[ponders]

Hi Janet,

No, I don't think it is a coincidence. Looks to me like he is trying to figure out how to get her and himself in the right position. Given time, he will figure it out. I would separate them if you don't want eggs. 52g is breeding size, she looks receptive. Apparently, little 36g males can give it a try!

 

[pamnsam94]

The posturing of the female is what I find most interesting about the photo. From what I've experienced, I think overall size (e.g. length) is a better "guide" than weight alone as to when/if I consider a particular animal to be breeding sized. I'd like to know though how small (length-wise; total length for males and females) other quad breeders have had their animals breed. For me, I haven't had a male breed much smaller than 12" total length. What are the total lengths of the two quads in the photo?

Perry

 

[jajeanpierre]

The posturing of the female is what I find most interesting about the photo. From what I've experienced, I think overall size (e.g. length) is a better "guide" than weight alone as to when/if I consider a particular animal to be breeding sized. I'd like to know though how small (length-wise; total length for males and females) other quad breeders have had their animals breed. For me, I haven't had a male breed much smaller than 12" total length. What are the total lengths of the two quads in the photo?

Perry

The male is 9" this morning. He just had a big growth spurt--he was 27g April 28th. He is just getting his horns--he had no horns in March.

The female is 10" and 49g. She weighed 43g on April 28th.

The cage is ordered and in the process of being shipped.

When I came upon them, I thought it was more than just a coincidence that he just happened to be there on top of her. She was holding on to the branch quite tight--she wasn't going to move. Neither moved when I looked at them. I still don't think they've bred.

Will her being (possibly) receptive and exposed to another chameleon, even though she is so young, stimulate her to produce eggs? Does the presence of a male stimulate egg production?

I'm wondering if this may be normal juvenile behavior that we never see because chameleons are not usually housed together. My colts will try to mount their mothers before they are anywhere near ready to be weaned and they can be quite obnoxious about it.

I just hope I haven't set her up to start producing eggs. She's too little as far as I am concerned.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Hi Janet,

No, I don't think it is a coincidence. Looks to me like he is trying to figure out how to get her and himself in the right position. Given time, he will figure it out. I would separate them if you don't want eggs. 52g is breeding size, she looks receptive. Apparently, little 36g males can give it a try!

You know, that was my first thought when I came upon them--he's mucking about and eventually will figure it out. Cage is ordered and being shipped today I think.

What I really want to know is, does the presence of a male, even an immature one, stimulate eggs?

I don't want eggs yet, but if she is going to produce eggs anyway, what a pity they aren't fertile. I have two big wild caught males as well, one I'm lending to another breeder. There's always a risk something will happen to the one I want to send away. But, then if I bred her to that male and she gave me babies, I might not know the parentage and I think that's really important with such a limited genetic pool.

 

[ponders]

My female was never around a male, but she matured and at 60g, 9 months in age she was obviously growing eggs. I borrowed a male and bred her because I didn't want her to waste her energy on an infertile clutch. JMHO