Whats the difference between t.q gracilior and t.q Quadricornis?
- Thread starter Theveiled
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JGuinan007
Avid Member
You want to talk jajeanpierre she knows this very well it think toe nails is the big diff
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
They are not two different species, they are two different subspecies of the Four-horned Chameleon (Trioceros quadricornis). They occur in different parts of Cameroon and Nigeria and have a few different morphological features. Among them, Trioceros quadricornis quadricornis tends to have a proportionately taller sailfin, and shorter, fatter horns. Trioceros quadricornis gracilior, on the other hand, tends to have a shorter sailfin, has red toenails, and generally has slightly longer, thinner horns. They also show some variations in coloration between the two, although both subspecies are somewhat variable.
Chris
Chris
Theveiled
Avid Member
Thanks so much!! Exactly what I was looking for!
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris isn´t that one of them can have more horns that the other sub species?
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Male T. q. gracilior were said in some old sources to have 1, 2 or 3 pairs of horns while male T. q. quadricornis would only have 1 or 2 pairs of horns, but this isn't true. I've seen T. q. quadricornis with just as many horns as I've seen T. q. gracilior.
Chris
JGuinan007
Avid Member
Oh yeah Chris Anderson knows a lot about them too.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
There actually is three Trioceros quadricornis sub species. The is the nominate form Trioceros quadricornis quadricornis and the two sub species Trioceros quadricornis gracilor and Trioceros quadricornis eisentrauti. Here is some literature about the topic.
http://alt.zfmk.de/BZB/Band_57_2/231-240_17_barej.pdf
Plus if you search this site there are a couple of threads about this topic "Quadricornis Sub Species". Here is one.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...os-quadricornis-subspecies.52979/#post-496464
Best Regard
Jeremy A. Rich
http://alt.zfmk.de/BZB/Band_57_2/231-240_17_barej.pdf
Plus if you search this site there are a couple of threads about this topic "Quadricornis Sub Species". Here is one.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/thr...os-quadricornis-subspecies.52979/#post-496464
Best Regard
Jeremy A. Rich
laurie
Retired Moderator
Great explanation Chris.
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
that is really interesting. I remember reading that many times that one if the sub species had more horns that the other. Chris do you mind me asking you 4 questions about Brookesia perarmata?
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
leedragon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Haha alright then
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Chris Anderson gave a great explanation. I have a large collection of wild caughts of both sub species, mostly T.q.gracilior, so I think I can help explain them.
Both the nominate species T.q.quadricornis (referred to as "quads") and the subspecies T.q.gracilior ("graciliors") males are known for having four to six horns and I believe there is the odd specimen that has more. There is quite a bit of overlap between the two species.
Here are some of the characteristics and differences I've noted. I've included pictures to demonstrate the difference. Some of the pictures are of animals that are newly imported and are looking very, very rough. Please do not look at these pictures and think that your captive bred animal should ever look like some of these pictures!
The differences that I've noticed to be the most consistent between quads and graciliors are color, horns, casque shape/color and nail color.
Your typical quad male is always the same color both when relaxed and when displaying. When he displays, the sides of his body darken to chestnut brown with blacks. Here is a typical male quad, picture taken from the internet. Their relaxed greens can range from bright limey greens to more blue greens. I think they are a little bigger and chunkier than graciliors. They tend--but not always!--to have a taller dorsal crest and sail fin.
One of mine, starting to get annoyed by my phone in his face (horns damaged badly at import):
Another of mine right after import.
Graciliors on the other hand can be all sorts of colors when relaxed and when displaying. Graciliors, even the females almost always have cheek patches ranging from greens to blues, yellows, golds and bright oranges, sometimes combining colors. Quads never have those cheek patches but graciliors' might have greens that don't always show themselves. Their body patches tend to be white while quads are more creamier. Some have very yellow body colors, some have what looks like a ruby red background surrounding their scales. There is a tremendous variety to the colors of relaxed graciliors. Some are yellow, some blue, some bright neon green when relalxed. Here are a few graciliors:
(Note: sailfin on the above animal was broken and folded over so appears shorter than it really was.)
The gracilior above is pictured a few days after import. His color is really bad but you can imagine how tall his sail fin would have been had it not been so badly damaged during import. Picture of him below in breeding display.
Note how tall the dorsal crest is on this recent import.
Dorsal crest: Graciliors tend to have less tall dorsal crests (back) and sail fins (tails) than quads but not always. Some graciliors have spectacular dorsal crests and sail fins and some quads do not.
Sticktongue
Avid Member
Thanks jajeanpierre. That was a really good explanation and clears up most every question I've ever had.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
There is a huge difference between the casques of graciliors and quads, both in colors and shape. @jpowell86 pointed out the difference in casque shape to me.
Quads have a broader, rounder and flatter casque that usually has big blue scales like this:
Graciliors have a narrower casque with a cleft where it ends at the back. You will have more color on the casques, and usually a lot of bright splarkles on the turrets. Quads will have only a few sparkles that are blue.
Female graciliors will tend to have a red or chestnut casque. Sometimes it look ruby red.
Last but not least is the color of the claws. Quads have horn-colored nails while graciliors have nails ranging from almost dark purple to rose. Babies do not show colored claws--it takes time to develop color. Here is an interesting picture of a young female who had one half of her hand with dark red nails and the other half with lighter rose colored nails. The red is blood and comes and goes depending on the age, health and mood. As you can see in the below picture, each toe is independent of the others on the same hand. I can never get a photo to show up as dark red as they appear in real life. Perhaps @Chris Anderson would post his fantastic red nail picture he has. You can see the red nails on the female pictured above as well.
Quads have a broader, rounder and flatter casque that usually has big blue scales like this:
Graciliors have a narrower casque with a cleft where it ends at the back. You will have more color on the casques, and usually a lot of bright splarkles on the turrets. Quads will have only a few sparkles that are blue.
Female graciliors will tend to have a red or chestnut casque. Sometimes it look ruby red.
Last but not least is the color of the claws. Quads have horn-colored nails while graciliors have nails ranging from almost dark purple to rose. Babies do not show colored claws--it takes time to develop color. Here is an interesting picture of a young female who had one half of her hand with dark red nails and the other half with lighter rose colored nails. The red is blood and comes and goes depending on the age, health and mood. As you can see in the below picture, each toe is independent of the others on the same hand. I can never get a photo to show up as dark red as they appear in real life. Perhaps @Chris Anderson would post his fantastic red nail picture he has. You can see the red nails on the female pictured above as well.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Horns in quads are shorter and thicker. I've found baby graciliors often have four horns at a very young age, much earlier than quads. The first two pictures are mature wc quads. Compare their horns to the gracilior horns I've included. The first quad has damage to his second set of horns so it never developed, but just compare the bulk of the horn at the base to the graciliors' horns.
Quads:
Graciliors:
Quads:
Graciliors:
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
@Chris Anderson Can I talk you into posting your fabulous red gracilior claw photo? Pretty please! My photos never show how really stunning the red claws are.
Motherlode Chameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Janet
Thanks for the great update to this thread.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
Thanks for the great update to this thread.
Best Regards
Jeremy A. Rich
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jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
One other comment regarding red nail color in T.q.graciliors: The red can be intense at times and fade to pale pink in the same animal over a matter of minutes because of an emotional response to something. In another thread, @Motherlode Chameleon discussed the absence of red claws in graciliors (the red claws are not always obvious or deep blood red). The red color, I believe, is actually blood not pigment although I you can see in the photo below of a very annoyed quad quad female that there is pigment in her nails as they have turned black. So, perhaps graciliors also have some pigment in their claws. When young graciliors start to develop red claw color, it might be just a tiny splash of dark pink or red, or just a line down one or more nails. Sometimes it comes in as an even rose pink. The color comes and goes until they eventually pretty much always have red/dark pink claws. Notice on the right front and back feet of the quadricornis pictured below, how the quick has darkened to black. This black body color with the bright green jewel sparkles is the color a non receptive quad turns when she sees a male. It is quite spectacular. A non receptive gracilior is a little different, with their bright cheek patches showing against their angry black.
Non receptive T.q.quadricornis:
Non-receptive T.q.gracilior:
Non receptive T.q.quadricornis:
Non-receptive T.q.gracilior:
