Why are paradalis still so highpriced

[phelsumatic]

I used to get nosy be's and such for 50.00 a piece.There weren't near as many captive born in the hobby as now so why are they still so pricey.WC still come in at such crazy high prices. Am I missing something dont get me wrong I fully understand how much it cost the average person to care for their animal's.As I have quite a few I mostly work with brookesia and rhampholeon's and some of these animal's are actually rare in the hobby.But panther's arent heck most people cant even identify the one's they have most of the time. So is it just about the money which it seems that it may be. Even if you added the cost of vet visit's which most breeders dont have ready access to a reliable herp vet.It still seems that the price is high considering the amount of eggs some female's can produce.

Or is there a theory behind it all to keep the cham's in reliable hand's instead of everyone's hand's.
later

 

[Kent67]

$50 each? Are you talking about before the quotas were applied? WC's still come in, but much fewer than in the old days. With how popular the species has become worldwide, I wonder what percentage of the wild taken ones come here versus Europe and Asia. Anyone have current figures?

My answer to the thread: Supply and demand. The other three species of Furcifer still come in at the same prices of 15 years ago.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

huh?

Have you ever looked at the prices for a good line of ... cat or dog?
finding a $800.00 puppy is easy... same with kittens.

Seems like you think it's perhaps some sort of conspiracy..

You're also using information from 2 decades ago.
There's a huge difference between what "was" and what now "is".

• Animals plundered from the wild are always going to be exploitively cheap,
have high mortality and until they eliminate the native populations
- strongly discourage all domestic breeding.

• The animals that did managed to survive here in the states, are just now
starting to show the results of being selectively developed.
These superior lines, when compared to the initial wild imports.
are greater in their appeal by conforming to our decorative tastes.

• The costs reflect "the real costs" of a captive breeding programs that must
consist of many holdback animals (that may never breed) in order to select
the few as adults that show the most desirable traits for a competitive
and young rapidly evolving market.
The species you're keeping are much easier and lower cost by comparison.
That are still imported from the wild and have a MUCH lower market demand.

• Nobody's plundering of "natures bank account" to avoid all the overhead:
incubators, utilities, feed, time for upkeep of the colony, health care
and TLC of the young to artificially drive the price down.

• The export of wild stocks has wisely been regulated
- for the protection of the species and the domestic export market
from their homelands.
Greatly reducing the supply of animals that could be sold to the general
public as a generic "name" animal vs something selectively bred.

• The market for these animals is still young and small...
they're a rare and still "exotic" pet that has to be offered widely in order
to find the few people that want one.

• Inherent difficulties in breeding, losses and sale of animals that never breed.
Not only, by the individual hobbyist, but the inability of
local or chain petstores to responsibly care for them lowers the total
amount of animals available.
Ask anyone around here if petco, petsmart or many of the local petstores
know anything about caring for these animals while on display.

• Panthers are NOT veilds that can produce upwards of 40 eggs, 100% hatching
or survival rate, They have a shorter reproductive life spans,
and aren't as hearty of "mistreatment" as the veilds.

Of course I can think of more reasons.. but that should satisfy.

 

[phelsumatic]

Wow such hostility,The market is not young and small look at how many cham breeders specialize in only panther's so that in it's self is odd that you would say that.Although they havent reached leopard gecko status but soon enough.
Further more I am not using information I gathered from a few decade's ago I am using my own experiance big differance.

As far as brookesia and rhampholeon being much easier to care for than a panther you are sadly misinformed or haven't worked with either.

I dont think that selectively breeding a panther for color actually makes them a superior individual than a wild caught do you.

Panther chameleons are in fact more prolific than any brookesia or rhampholeon I have ever kept.Just by the sheer number of eggs a female panther can produce alone guarantee's this to be true when you consider a brookesia minima will lay six month's out of the year but may only lat one egg at a time when in comparison female panther can lay 15 or more at one shot.Even if half make it that is still more panther babies at one time than a full year of minima .So which one is easier to care for.

And it saddens me that the market has turned into a designer market,as I like how they look before we breed the traits out of them.As do quite a few other hobbyist.What is so undesirable about a normal looking panther from a certain local.What are you fixing that wasn't already in place before that morph reached your hand's.Are you breeding them for longer life span's no you are breeding for color's that dont occur in the wild which is wrong IMO.
Have a good day

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

Sorry if I seem hostile - But I also took your question as a bit abrasive as well....

Compared to dogs, cats and even goldfish
the chameleon market IS in it's infancy.
For instance Ed and Liddy have only reached F6's with their breeding projects.
Compared to the thousands of generations for "mans best friend"
or even domestic cows have been bred that's simply scratching the surface.
I'm thinking along the timeframe of species not from a individual personal perspective.

you said: "rookesia and rhampholeon being much easier to care for ~snip~
when in comparison female panther can lay 15 or more at one shot."

Perhaps.... I haven't kept any since about a decade ago and I didn't bother to try to breed those.
But I have worked with the veilds and panthers...(breeding both).
I feel I know those well enough.
The later require larger cages and greater amounts of care than
what I can both remember, imagine and have been told about the former.

The market is larger for the colorful panthers than for the stump tails.
A nice panther will stop people in their tracks... stump tails have a much harder time doing that.


you said: "And it saddens me that the market has turned into a designer market,
as I like how they look before we breed the traits out of them"

I answer: and what traits are you referring too?
please support with a reference(s).

you continued: "As do quite a few other hobbyist."
I answer: Who are they? I haven't met anyone as of yet that has said that to me
other than yourself who do you count with this opinion?

you asked: "Are you breeding them for longer life span's no you are
breeding for color's that dont occur in the wild which is wrong IMO."

I answer: Selective breeding is the refinement of certain traits that already
exist within a species (including mutations). Many select for: general health,
temperament, form and of course what initially attracts
people to these animals... color(s).
and yes those individuals that have longer lifespans also have longer
reproductive lifespans, So in effect, we are also breeding for that as well.

happy holidays!
jc

 

[phelsumatic]

As far as stopping people in their tracks regarding brook's etc that is a matter of personal opinion.

You can put a wc panther next to a cbb panther over a few generations and clearly see the differance scalation wise. Colorwise It may be harder but overall I have seen a definate visual diff.

You are not considering the fact that you as a breeder I assume inbreed,line breed,and outcross your animals.Which in fact may be why you have some issue with die off's and non breeders in your group.I have had issues with this as well but not because I am selectively breeding my brookesia but because of no new blood which would help boost my animals genetically.Thus producing a healthier animal.

Goodluck with your animal's and have a good holiday as well

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

You can put a wc panther next to a cbb panther over a few generations and clearly see the differance scalation wise. Colorwise It may be harder but overall I have seen a definate visual diff.

The texture of the skin, type of scales and body size for a wild caught animal is going
to be different than from a captive hatched animal.
By the fact that captive animals have grown up in a different environment and
consumed different food stuffs while they were growing.
It's not yet anything genetic.
Take any of the F6's and toss their young into a harsh "wild" environment
and you'll see their skin roughen up too.

You are not considering the fact that you as a breeder I assume inbreed,line breed,and outcross your animals.Which in fact may be why you have some issue with die off's and non breeders in your group.

Well, I have considered it in fact and discussed the matter with others.
I've taken measures to get as much new DNA into the colony as I can.
While the doubling up of negative impact recessives is something to be concerned about
I haven't seen it in any of my clutches as of yet. Nor have I heard of anyone experiencing that.
I believe that we've got a long way to go until we start seeing that ugly beast rearing it's head.

Once beyond the mid sub adult stage these animals establish and defend
territories and don't travel much afterwards. It would be reasonable to expect that clutch mates would interbreed in the wild... and do it often.
This type of isolation coupled with geographic barriers is what's responsible for all the variants we see in the wild.
I'm willing to bet that given the large scale grouping and mixing of animals
domestically, that many of the pet panthers that people now own have
greater diversity in some aspects of their DNA as well as some clustering
arising from the development of certain individual lines within individuals.
More so, than with a sample taken from a local type/cluster in the wild.

Any egg loss or die off is going to be the breeders or keepers fault more often than anything genetic.
Thus far it's been simple... give them what they need and they'll thrive.
The problem is that many "out there" don't....
even when described and told... get it all (apple) wrong.

happy holidays as well... jc.

 

[phelsumatic]

True there may be a greater diversity in their dna but what percentage of that is a desirable trait.
I guess only time will tell.

 

[angus310]

Let's be honest, breeders don't do it just because they love it. They do it because the make money. Don't use cat and dog prices to apply to the price of captive bred and hatched juveniles because they have so many more offspring to offset equipment costs. The point is that if you look at it from an outsider's point of view, if you sell 20 offspring at 300 a piece, you bring in $6,000. If you have 5 sets of juveniles that is $30,000. There is overhead but not that much. Not to mention that many breeders charge more than $300 each.

People charge what people will pay, true value of "free market" philosophy. Those who breed all the time should have figured out a way to cut down on their overhead, i.e. cultivating their own feeders, etc. The small breeders need to buy the equipment and recoup some expenses. Once you have the supplies purchased, you're only looking at price of utilities, food, and supplements. I have no problem with the price b/c I chose to buy one and was willing to pay the $325.00. The good thing about the price is that those willing to pay that much are more likely ready to make the full time commitment these animals need. I have bred dogs before and always charge less than anyone else because I BOTH enjoy it and like to make some money. So a boxer that could sell for 550, I usually sell for 400. I still make money, even though I pay a doc to cut tails and remove dew claws and have to give the price of the pic of the litter or the puppy itself to the owner of the stud.

Dogs/cats = more initial vet costs, less offspring, similar hold time before selling
A full time dog breeder is severely limited by the amount of space they have available for breeding lines; whereas, chameleon breeders could have 50 in their breeding colony isolated to a couple rooms in your house.

Sorry if I offend someone who breeds but I have done it before and know that you can cut costs, still offer the same quality, still make money and charge less. However, there is no reason to charge less if you are able to move them for 350-400.

 

[phelsumatic]

I know that.I knew it when I asked the question originally.I have been involved with reptile's amphibians most of my life.Every forum I join wether it is a frog forum or one like this one.There are a group of people who do it because they love the animal's and truly enjoy the process and then there are the one's who do it just for the buck.And actually a small group in between.
I myself dont sell any of my phelsuma,brookesia,mantella's etc.I trade and that is it I cant charge someone 400.00 for an animal that cost me no where near that to produce.
But that is just me.
take it easy

 

[CamoChameleons]

I know that.I knew it when I asked the question originally.I have been involved with reptile's amphibians most of my life.Every forum I join wether it is a frog forum or one like this one.There are a group of people who do it because they love the animal's and truly enjoy the process and then there are the one's who do it just for the buck.And actually a small group in between.
I myself dont sell any of my phelsuma,brookesia,mantella's etc.I trade and that is it I cant charge someone 400.00 for an animal that cost me no where near that to produce.
But that is just me.
take it easy

THATS JUST WHAT THEY COST! From all breeders.
We all love chameleons. Some of us breed them as a hobby, and some breed as a business. So why monopolize this thing!?
THERES NO "WAL MART" of chameleons.... that would be stupid.
Most breeders spend countless hours and lots of money to produce the best of the best to then sell to the consumer in which will be satisfied with their purchase. On top of that most breeders gaurantee the Chameleons they sell.

Its Also SUPPLY AND DEMAND. Theres less panthers available. Compared to Veiled. It also takes longer to produce Panthers and are less eggs per clutch than Veiled's on average.

 

[angus310]

Like I said, if people weren't willing to spend it, the price would go down. The last thing a cham breeder wants is too many babies that they can't move. But then of course, some can sell them as "hold backs". Sometimes this is legit but it is possible that they just weren't able to sell them yet.

 

[angus310]

I know that.I knew it when I asked the question originally.I have been involved with reptile's amphibians most of my life.Every forum I join wether it is a frog forum or one like this one.There are a group of people who do it because they love the animal's and truly enjoy the process and then there are the one's who do it just for the buck.And actually a small group in between.
I myself dont sell any of my phelsuma,brookesia,mantella's etc.I trade and that is it I cant charge someone 400.00 for an animal that cost me no where near that to produce.
But that is just me.
take it easy

I was agreeing with you that they are overpriced and that they could be cheaper. No need to post and then argue with those who disagree or "no duh" those who try to help support your opinion/question.

 

[phelsumatic]

No duh intended I was aware that you were agreeing with me about the price issue.
I tried to edit my comment but couldnt figure it out sorry if I offended you angus.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this thread tonight.

It boils down to two different things
One being, Allowing these animals to breed and provided to others is going to be sustainable or it's not.

Sustainability requires investment that has to be compensated by the beneficiary.
Hence the costs to keep breeding moving forward seem high to some.
What they're paying for in part is for the continued development of the species.
Sell too cheaply, the progress slows down and problems aren't dealt with properly.
There is a point when cutting corners attacks the integrity of the system or market itself.
(anyone feel good about buying, eating or having you kids play with things made in china? ... anyone?)

The second is that once you cross over into breeding.... (slippery slope)
It's a job.
No doubt about it... It's a JOB.
For all the time, effort, expense and pains it causes
I would be making more and sleeping better moonlighting somewhere for someone else
and not have to deal with the headaches. To be able to go home, leaving it all behind
at the office and not have to deal with 10,000 chirping crickets or a girlfriend complaining
about all the hawaiian papaya beetles trying to fly around the house.

 

[phelsumatic]

You cannot even compare the captive breeding of paradalis to threat's of lead poisoning from purchasing chinese made children's toy's.Are you serious.
I agree that it is a job never argued that point but one day when all those indonesian panthers start to flood in your panther's will have to be reduced in order for you to compete, then what will you do,will the prices drop or are you gonna quit breeding panther's all together and work on the next species.I have seen some of the indo panther's they look every bit as stunning as our's only a fraction of the cost mind you.

I myself will never pay 400.00 for a panther cham none of them no matter what morph.local etc.But that is just me I simply felt the need to bring the attention where it was due at the price of some of these animals.
goodluck

 

[HiroProtagonist]

Sustainability requires investment that has to be compensated by the beneficiary.

Does it cost 5+ times as much to raise panthers as it does to raise veilds? Or any other type of chameleon for that matter?

The answer to the thread starters question, in my opinion, would be simply: Capitalism...whadayagonnado.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

it's long... sorry.

You cannot even compare the captive breeding of paradalis to threat's of lead poisoning from purchasing chinese made children's toy's.Are you serious.

Yes, I'm quite serious.

The general public doesn't know who was the subcontractor that used lead paint, poisoned the gluten,
deleted the flame retardant etc.
All they know is that it was made in China. Substitutes were used to lower production costs, cheat.. whatever
The work wasn't generating enough profit to maintain the standards of quality or profit. Resulting in " a few incidents".
Now the whole export production market is affected in china and tarnished.. everyone loses.

How does this apply?
If the price of these animals gets shaved too low
The expenditures establishing a name/brand , in new blood, new lines and top quality care of the hatchlings
gets eliminated. Many will be unable to stand behind their sales. Without the above many people will get stuck
with poor and unhealthy animals, leaving them feeling sour and destroying the general marketplace
(china's exports = panther chameleon market). everyone loses.
It's already bad enough with the common myth that these animals are "so sensitive they die within 3 months"
from the time when they were wild caught imports.
It's in everyones best interests to maintain top quality to combat that perception -so everyone wins.
Hence the required investment and payback.

all those indonesian panthers start to flood ~snip~then what will you do

Well, against a foreign product there are several established methods to combat and protect a domestic market.
IF it's worth protecting.... and I hope that in the future it will be worth protecting -everyone will benefit as a result.

myself will never pay 400.00 for a panther cham none of them no matter what morph.local etc. But that is just me.

Where did you get the $400.00 price from? I'm seeing $200 -$300 as the norm for quality young.
Well even then, you don't pay for quality... that's fine... deal with sick or sub quality animals.
I know that when I walk in and show your friends a top quality animal.. yours will lose it's shine really quickly.
The differences between wild caught and undeveloped lines VS developed is growing greater year by year.
From my experience you generally get less than what you pay for -if you go cheap.
Cheap undercutters are using the publics perception of quality animals -to move theirs.
Something always has to give, history has show if it's not the wild stocks -it's going to be the animals (both are unethical imo).

I simply felt the need to bring the attention where it was due at the price of some of these animals

and this is what irks me...
There's always someone that wants to try to rain on someone else's parade or even troll.
I'm not even selling my clutches publicly and here I am defending the current free market
against someone that thinks the animals are too expensive. Well, that's fine
(there's always going to be someone) IF anything, it shows that they're properly priced.

You are free to breed them yourself and try to undercut everyone else if you like.
But if you're honest about it, you'll find yourself with thousands of overhead and at
least 2 years of work to pay for even before you have your first clutch to sell
(barring any losses or mishaps .. and trust me, those will happen!).

Hiroprotagonist

Does it cost 5+ times as much to raise panthers as it does to raise veilds?

Well for starters. it's not raising that it's the cost.. it's the investment.

The domestic population for the veils is different than for the panthers.
Even if you discount the hybrids that got mixed in and misidentified species...
we have muddled all the different locals that *could have* been developed
in the same manner as the panthers are currently.
Result: the market has been "destroyed" for those animals by not having
people protect them and develop them properly from the start.
Sure they're now cheap -but they're also looking the part.
I've seen markets destroyed by the casual non professional bozo looking
to make a quick buck -nobody wins.

Where as, Veild chameleons could have been **stunning** with several different forms/locals
if there had been enough incentive to invest in working with them earlier on.
Right now even our boards here are filled with people that have unremarkable adults
breeding whose offspring are going to be sold or "dumped" somewhere for "?".
How many of those new breeders have invested in researching, locating and
developing the best lines available?
Or did they just get a pair at the local petco as pets and haphazardly bred them for fun?

A good proven male/female panther is something to be cared for and protected.
You're better off not forcing her to breed and produce often. But only 2 times year
with a good male to make top quality offspring that will go to good homes.
Price them high enough to cover expenses and keep the system moving forward
Reserving many offspring with potential (increasing overhead) to pick the best of the best to develop.
it's all about reinvestment not just making enough to pay your bills only.

In short, the money goes to developing the breeding lines to make better quality animals in the future
and being able to do it all ethically.

Prices will fall...
When a plateau has been reached with the animals development and the lines standardized.
but right now every year we see some serious development from each of the main breeder's projects.
That costs money to perform.
That costs money and for those that want to have a unique and exotic pet that their friends
and ooh and aaahhh at... then they'll have to help support that development.

Now if someone wants to take some of the results of these efforts and ride the coattails by
breeding someone else's hatchlings -then go ahead.
But please don't complain about other people pricing if you're not also working to
create new and more appealing animals yourself.

 

[phelsumatic]

The only way(some) american breeder's can combat the flood of cheaper paradalis is to purchase the whole shipment which quite a few have done already.And pass them off as there own offspring which they do.

You keep saying name brand,designer morph's.That is a huge problem imo.They are not the next new thing,The next glofish,died gourami.Cloned cat that glow's from jellyfish dna.we need to stay away from that mentality in regards to cham's.

How many times do you need to regain your initial investment.

You dont have to defend yourself anymore but the simple fact that you keep doing so makes me think your hiding something.

I am sorry if I have rained on your parade my intention's weren't to blast you or anyother breeder.I agree with you on many thing's just not all of them.
later

 

[brandaleon]

I dont think that selectively breeding a panther for color actually makes them a superior individual than a wild caught do you.


And it saddens me that the market has turned into a designer market,as I like how they look before we breed the traits out of them.

FYI.. Selective breeding has been around since before the time of darwin, it is not something new. Every captive animal we have, domestic pets or even farm animals have been altered intentianally or not by us(humans) simply because we have bread for the strongest most desireable animals since the beginning of time. With all due respect.