Why are paradalis still so highpriced

yah but in that post you weren't talking about natural evolution. you were talking about how man is altering their evolution. Have i read your post wrong? If I did then lets chalk this up to miscommunication.
 
When we selective breed our cham's for color alone we are doing them as a species an injustice.Selectively breeding a panther simply for an all blue panther to me is wrong.This is just my opinion.


We are not altering there evolution as long as some still exist in the wild, we are altering there appearance simply for money's sake by selective breeding for color etc.
Also natural selection occur's over thousand's of years depending on the species and selective breeding by man depending on species takes a fraction of that.
 
Yes, I'm quite serious.

The general public doesn't know who was the subcontractor that used lead paint, poisoned the gluten,
deleted the flame retardant etc.
All they know is that it was made in China. Substitutes were used to lower production costs, cheat.. whatever
The work wasn't generating enough profit to maintain the standards of quality or profit. Resulting in " a few incidents".
Now the whole export production market is affected in china and tarnished.. everyone loses.

How does this apply?
If the price of these animals gets shaved too low
The expenditures establishing a name/brand , in new blood, new lines and top quality care of the hatchlings
gets eliminated. Many will be unable to stand behind their sales. Without the above many people will get stuck
with poor and unhealthy animals, leaving them feeling sour and destroying the general marketplace
(china's exports = panther chameleon market). everyone loses.
It's already bad enough with the common myth that these animals are "so sensitive they die within 3 months"
from the time when they were wild caught imports.
It's in everyones best interests to maintain top quality to combat that perception -so everyone wins.
Hence the required investment and payback.

Quote:
all those indonesian panthers start to flood ~snip~then what will you do
Well, against a foreign product there are several established methods to combat and protect a domestic market.
IF it's worth protecting.... and I hope that in the future it will be worth protecting -everyone will benefit as a result.

Quote:
myself will never pay 400.00 for a panther cham none of them no matter what morph.local etc. But that is just me.
Where did you get the $400.00 price from? I'm seeing $200 -$300 as the norm for quality young.
Well even then, you don't pay for quality... that's fine... deal with sick or sub quality animals.
I know that when I walk in and show your friends a top quality animal.. yours will lose it's shine really quickly.
The differences between wild caught and undeveloped lines VS developed is growing greater year by year.
From my experience you generally get less than what you pay for -if you go cheap.
Cheap undercutters are using the publics perception of quality animals -to move theirs.
Something always has to give, history has show if it's not the wild stocks -it's going to be the animals (both are unethical imo).

Quote:
I simply felt the need to bring the attention where it was due at the price of some of these animals
and this is what irks me...
There's always someone that wants to try to rain on someone else's parade or even troll.
I'm not even selling my clutches publicly and here I am defending the current free market
against someone that thinks the animals are too expensive. Well, that's fine
(there's always going to be someone) IF anything, it shows that they're properly priced.

You are free to breed them yourself and try to undercut everyone else if you like.
But if you're honest about it, you'll find yourself with thousands of overhead and at
least 2 years of work to pay for even before you have your first clutch to sell
(barring any losses or mishaps .. and trust me, those will happen!).

Hiroprotagonist
Quote:
Does it cost 5+ times as much to raise panthers as it does to raise veilds?
Well for starters. it's not raising that it's the cost.. it's the investment.

The domestic population for the veils is different than for the panthers.
Even if you discount the hybrids that got mixed in and misidentified species...
we have muddled all the different locals that *could have* been developed
in the same manner as the panthers are currently.
Result: the market has been "destroyed" for those animals by not having
people protect them and develop them properly from the start.
Sure they're now cheap -but they're also looking the part.
I've seen markets destroyed by the casual non professional bozo looking
to make a quick buck -nobody wins.

Where as, Veild chameleons could have been **stunning** with several different forms/locals
if there had been enough incentive to invest in working with them earlier on.
Right now even our boards here are filled with people that have unremarkable adults
breeding whose offspring are going to be sold or "dumped" somewhere for "?".
How many of those new breeders have invested in researching, locating and
developing the best lines available?
Or did they just get a pair at the local petco as pets and haphazardly bred them for fun?

A good proven male/female panther is something to be cared for and protected.
You're better off not forcing her to breed and produce often. But only 2 times year
with a good male to make top quality offspring that will go to good homes.
Price them high enough to cover expenses and keep the system moving forward
Reserving many offspring with potential (increasing overhead) to pick the best of the best to develop.
it's all about reinvestment not just making enough to pay your bills only.

In short, the money goes to developing the breeding lines to make better quality animals in the future
and being able to do it all ethically.

Prices will fall...
When a plateau has been reached with the animals development and the lines standardized.
but right now every year we see some serious development from each of the main breeder's projects.
That costs money to perform.
That costs money and for those that want to have a unique and exotic pet that their friends
and ooh and aaahhh at... then they'll have to help support that development.

Now if someone wants to take some of the results of these efforts and ride the coattails by
breeding someone else's hatchlings -then go ahead.
But please don't complain about other people pricing if you're not also working to
create new and more appealing animals yourself.
Click to expand...

You have waaaaaaaay too much time on your hands, but the animals are still overpriced. Sorry. :)
 
Supply and Demand.

$0.02 (CDN)



Also, I love how everyone thinks that Jeweledchameleons writes really long posts, but really when you space it correctly as opposed to that annoying way that uses less than half the page, it really isnt that long.
 
Thanks Will... it does boil down to supply and demand.

Maybe, I do tend for more supportive detail in the posts than usual.
But then again, Perhaps it's also that I've worked with type for so long
that I don't feel any pain dealing with it either. :)

Happy Holidays
 
Supply and demand eh?

Why do I keep seeing the same ads over and over and over on KS classifieds? To me that seems that there is too much supply and not enough demand for this starting-to-be inbred species.

10 years ago when I got into chameleons, I was happy to spend $200+ on a CB pardalis or calyptratus. They were a rare thing back then and worth the extra monies. Not anymore. Everyone is breeding them.

I refuse to spend that kind of money on a now common species so I don't. And the rare species I work with and breed... I end up giving them to other expert keepers because for some reason they don't command overpricing. Go figure.

My 0.02 cents CAD.
Trace
 
Trace you are so right I have also noticed that and that is one of the reason's I started this thread.I just wanted the breeder's eye view on the situation and apparently I pissed a few people off.

Will only one person mentioned that. Not everyone
 
Phelsumatic, it's been mentioned in other threads, about the long collum form posts, it was just a side comment not directed towards anyone. I haven't seen anyone say that you have pissed them off....?

Trace, you talk about a chameleon being worth the extra monies, what happened to people valuing what they like and prefer, over something that is rarer? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and that's what will balance worth and value for someones purchase of an 'overpriced' chameleon.

Would you suggest the chameleons you are keeping be chosen by most of the people looking to keep chameleons, if they could get them? I'm sure it would save people hundreds initially if they could buy them. Yet it remains that every time a person comes looking for advice on what chameleon to start with, they are repeatedly told Veiled or panther.

I'm a bit confused because you say there is supply without demand, but then later you say that you have to give away your rare species. There certainly is a lot of people owning chameleons, (and not the rarer ones) for their not to be demand for them.

Just a few sporadic points, since I'm not really trying to prove anything other than, people will pay any price for something if they want it enough.
 
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phelsumatic said:
When we selective breed our cham's for color alone we are doing them as a species an injustice.Selectively breeding a panther simply for an all blue panther to me is wrong.This is just my opinion.


We are not altering there evolution as long as some still exist in the wild, we are altering there appearance simply for money's sake by selective breeding for color etc.
Also natural selection occur's over thousand's of years depending on the species and selective breeding by man depending on species takes a fraction of that.
Click to expand...
I disagree with your view on evolution and selective breeding. When we remove a species from the wild we are altering their evolution, even if we leave others. Look at dogs for instance, at one point they were naturally found in the wild? How common are they now? Also think about how many different species their are now. When we take a chameleon from wild we alter it's world. Yes we try our best to replicate the wild, but we fall short. Inevitably we are altering the species even if we let them breed on their own in captivity. So if you don't support selective breeding I feel it is hypocrisy to support animal captivity, the consequences are analogous.
 
I am all for keeping them true to their wild counterpart's,And we are not going to do this if we keep inbreeding crossbreeding all these differant local's.
There is already quite a bit of confusion concerning some morph's so why must we make it worse.
As far as me supporting animal's in captivity you bet ya,I do without us alot of these animal's will be gone even if we started the avalanche.I feel it's our responsibility to make sure they are around wether it be in a cage or jungle.
either one is fine with me.
 
keep the locals from hybridizing

phelsumatic,

I agree with the position regarding the preservation of what we're currently calling "locals".
the hybridizing different locals is counter productive in my opinion
and I've argued that point in another thread.

However when I say that I'm breeding...
My goal is to bring out the unique and attractive traits within each "local".
that may include some folding back into the line but that will happen in the wild as well.
depending upon your personal viewpoint of "evolution"
those individual traits are their keys to domesticated survival.

anyway.. this is going off topic...
just wanted to another 2¢ on that point.
here's some though provoking reading on another species
that should help redefine the concept of locals and "hybridizing"
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7007/5/57
 
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Interesting article although when you look at how many differant local's of panther's their are compared to girraffe's I think we are still better off keeping local's seperate.The girraffe's have no barrier's in comparison to some panther local's where island's seperate them from the main island and other's mountain's and other natural barrier's reside.
Genetically they are probally identical but geographically they are not.

My view's are keep nosy's nosy's and so on and so forth no crossing of local's.
I am all for breeding nosy's with differant coloration within the same population,I have no problem's with that.As of course this naturally occuring within given population's.
 
Some people have told me that they're doing it because other are doing it and they've got to compete.
Even though they're sold as a much lower price... they are being produced
because some people feel they have too otherwise they're falling behind.

Not to sound like a hypocrite but I have a single mixed female myself.
Although, I haven't bred her yet as part of the colony I got her for that reason.
I still don't know what I'm going to do with her now that my thoughts
on the subject have evolved a bit more than a year ago.
 
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To me that is scary it's a shame as I am sure your girl would have been useful to your effort's if in fact she was of a known local instead of a cross.
And the reasoning you have mentioned I have heard as well and that makes me sick.Some of which has come from reputable breeder's mind you.
 
Well, I'm sorry if I made you sick.
Clearly you have strong feelings about the issue
I myself, am a bit more academic about it all.
It's the simple facts regarding competition.

Complicating matters is a largely uniformed public
that wants cool colors and doesn't care what a species even means.

I've been asked if it's "possible to cross a veiled with a panther"
more times than I care to count. You know, It's up to us
the community itself, to educate and support a healthy, beneficial
and informed perspective upon these animals.

I was just speaking to one of the people that runs a reptile breeder show
about this very issue / thread this afternoon.
His comments consisted of a reluctant sigh about how wild crossings
by individual hobby keepers have carelessly messed up the green tree snakes
and other exotics by not preserving the different "locals" [my words].

Sorry kent, please know that this isn't against you.
and I know it sounds like a broken record..
but I believe it's really is kinda important.


Re: my hybrid / crossed female came from a reputable breeder
and is the result from a known series of crossings
as well as "pick of the litter".
She's a wonderful shade of blue and would certainly
produce some VERY NICE kids with my ambanja male
With only a *small* % of other locals thrown in
"sigh"...
 
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Jeweledchameleons said:
Sorry kent, please know that this isn't against you.
and I know it sounds like a broken record..
but I believe it's really is kinda important.
Click to expand...

Huh? For the record, I haven't purposefully produced any crossed locality-type panthers since, uh, 1994-95. I'm just trying to tell you guys that I've been around the "panther community" and the "reptile community" long enough to know that as long as there is still a source of wild caughts coming in, there are two definites.

1. There will ALWAYS be people keeping locality-types pure in captive breedings. Some people feel very strongly about this.

2. There will ALWAYS be people cross breeding locales, both professionals and hobbyists alike. Some people don't think it matters.

What I think is you, me, no one else here, is going to be able to change that. Why spend time worrying about it, or making myself sick over it?

Imported females must be proven out to see if they're even the locality-type they were purported to be at time of sale. What do you propose are done with the cross-locale panthers that are produced inadvertantly when the importer has incorrect data on the females? Euthanasia???
 
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