lrg83caleb
New Member
I was just watching my male panther eat soil!! I lost it and kind of ushered him back up into his tree. The soil is organic and has no pearlite, but still freaked me out.
Why do chams eat soil ??
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Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
I would like to know the difference in what brand of supplements they use in Europe as opposed to what we use over here.
I think the general consensus is Herptivite and Rep-Cal...for over here.
Maybe they are lacking some essential minerals.
What I would do is use Vit-All and especially Miner-All. For the bacteria part of it (even kids eat dirt, for this same reason, it builds resistance, same reason they eat boogers), I would recommend investing in some NutriBac, it is a probiotic specifically for reptiles.
I think the general consensus is Herptivite and Rep-Cal...for over here.
Maybe they are lacking some essential minerals.
What I would do is use Vit-All and especially Miner-All. For the bacteria part of it (even kids eat dirt, for this same reason, it builds resistance, same reason they eat boogers), I would recommend investing in some NutriBac, it is a probiotic specifically for reptiles.
summoner12
Avid Member
I think what you'll find is that chams eat dirt.(period) I really don't think it matters how you supplement them. They just end up doing it.
Edit: Because they like it.
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Forgive me, but we do not necropsy every chameleon when it dies, as since all eventually die, that would be a whole lot of extra work IMMHO.
In answer to your question, we have observed no correlation between eating of natural dirt and refuse, and impactions. From all that I gather, our success rates are better than most as well. Judging from much of the logic in this thread, that would be in spite of many of our chameleons eating dirt, as most have access to dirt and other refuse. We also believe that as with all a chameleon eats, the choices it makes will be influenced at least in part by instincts that vary based on current need. To us, that does not relegate some dirt-eating as being indicative of a problem, any more than one chameleon may eat roaches, while a sibling may like spiders instead. We do believe that poor husbandry can alter these instincts beyond healthy parameters.
All of our experience led us to believe long ago that some dirt-eating is a normal behavior. Without going into detail, if the average reproductive results obtained in captivity were how it were in the wild, chameleons would be extinct, so I am loathe to eliminate opportunities or prevent behaviors that seem a part of this animal's natural history. It has always been an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" approach for us, and we do not see soil eating, etc, as a "broken" behavior. That current conclusion does require that we be very attentive to the dirt and what is in it. As with other aspects of diet, we do tinker with dirt. Good luck with all.
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SoCaliSon
Avid Member
Forget impaction... I would never have substrate in my cages for sanitation purposes. Maybe I'm lazy, but the ease of draining and cleaning a bare bottom cage is awesome. I just think finding a way to keep your substrate from becoming a soppy mess would be to much work.
~Joe
Oh yeah... I have seen my Veileds eat soil (not my panthers) on numerous occasions.
~Joe
Oh yeah... I have seen my Veileds eat soil (not my panthers) on numerous occasions.
summoner12
Avid Member
because they passed too many much needed nutrients.
ChamNovice
New Member
So..... Is the only reason people here say "NO SUBSTRATE" basically only because of the drainage issues? If everyone has seen them eat dirt, then impaction can't be the "main" concern, but yet it is conveyed this way when someone says to never use substrate. I guess I personally don't see an issue with using substrate if it is sifted to remove large particles(for impaction prevention). Why can the drainage issue not be solved in the same manner as when you set up a PDF enclosure?? Just modified to rid moisture more quickly, and not create a swap? Why is it more common in other countries to use it, and it's a huge NO NO here?
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Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
I didn't realize using substrate was taboo??? I'm all for substrates, and leaf litter, and microfauna.
I also agree that eating dirt is not a bad thing, lots of animals do and it is indeed beneficial, but I am proposing that it is due to a deficiency in one area or another...in which case, to cover all your bases, Miner-All would be a good addition to the diet, along with NutriBac.
When you have a craving for something, it is your body telling you you have some deficiency somewhere, and that craving will supply the nutrients for that deficiency (not to be confused with addicting comfort foods). This is essentially the same thing going on, except the chameleon has a craving for dirt.
A lot of captive reptiles lack a significant amount of essential and beneficial bacteria, because many keepers are 'too' sanitary, and they often never have access to bacterias that would benefit them in many areas of digestion and metabolism.
Bacteria is GOOD! And so is substrate (the right kind).
I also agree that eating dirt is not a bad thing, lots of animals do and it is indeed beneficial, but I am proposing that it is due to a deficiency in one area or another...in which case, to cover all your bases, Miner-All would be a good addition to the diet, along with NutriBac.
When you have a craving for something, it is your body telling you you have some deficiency somewhere, and that craving will supply the nutrients for that deficiency (not to be confused with addicting comfort foods). This is essentially the same thing going on, except the chameleon has a craving for dirt.
A lot of captive reptiles lack a significant amount of essential and beneficial bacteria, because many keepers are 'too' sanitary, and they often never have access to bacterias that would benefit them in many areas of digestion and metabolism.
Bacteria is GOOD! And so is substrate (the right kind).
Tom Carlier
Member
Perhaps if mine had ever eaten dirt, I might not have continued using it.
But why do our chams over here never or very rarely eat dirt,
and yours apparently do it all of the time ... ?
But ways seem effective to me as we're both succesfully keeping chams this way for years.
And drainage? Cocopeat helps keep the humidity up by soaking up water and slowly letting it vapourise.
I spray 3 quarters of a liter a day in his cage,
the cocopeat gets moisty, not wet.
It can take up 4 times its own weight in water, so it can never be wet if you don't spray toooo much.
And my plants are potted in it, so they take up some of the water too. I never water my plants, only spray water in the cage.
And as for the supplements,
I use Multi-vitamins & minerals, repticalcium with D3, T-rex cricketfood, and I put vitamins in their drinking water.
Others tend to use Korvimin, Miner-All and Vit-all over here.
But why do our chams over here never or very rarely eat dirt,
and yours apparently do it all of the time ... ?
But ways seem effective to me as we're both succesfully keeping chams this way for years.
And drainage? Cocopeat helps keep the humidity up by soaking up water and slowly letting it vapourise.
I spray 3 quarters of a liter a day in his cage,
the cocopeat gets moisty, not wet.
It can take up 4 times its own weight in water, so it can never be wet if you don't spray toooo much.
And my plants are potted in it, so they take up some of the water too. I never water my plants, only spray water in the cage.
And as for the supplements,
I use Multi-vitamins & minerals, repticalcium with D3, T-rex cricketfood, and I put vitamins in their drinking water.
Others tend to use Korvimin, Miner-All and Vit-all over here.
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
no substrate is a rule of thumb, and the main reason this rule of thumb exists is impaction. chams eating soil from a potted plant ( which is where most chams in the usa are eating it from ) is less of a risk simply because the volume of soil available is less.
and its generally excepted when referring to substrate posing risks of impaction, the risk is when feeders are on the substrate and the cham is shooting for them. not really referring to a chameleons natural instinct to consume soil for what ever reason.
its a rule of thumb......... a necessary evil to keep the chams environment as easy to maintain as possible for new keepers..
Im wondering if the way soil is available to chams in the usa VS eu is a contributing factor.....IE something about the soil in a potted plant vs just substrate
could the cham see a living thing such as a plant or tree as an indicator that the soil is worth consuming. If something is living in it there is a better chances of is having what ever its looking for in a soil?
doesnt seem to far off if you've witness your cham prefer to dig and burry eggs near the base of a plant or tree....even my brevs did it
and its generally excepted when referring to substrate posing risks of impaction, the risk is when feeders are on the substrate and the cham is shooting for them. not really referring to a chameleons natural instinct to consume soil for what ever reason.
its a rule of thumb......... a necessary evil to keep the chams environment as easy to maintain as possible for new keepers..
Im wondering if the way soil is available to chams in the usa VS eu is a contributing factor.....IE something about the soil in a potted plant vs just substrate
could the cham see a living thing such as a plant or tree as an indicator that the soil is worth consuming. If something is living in it there is a better chances of is having what ever its looking for in a soil?
doesnt seem to far off if you've witness your cham prefer to dig and burry eggs near the base of a plant or tree....even my brevs did it
Zen Reptiles
Avid Member
Most reptiles from the rain forest bury their eggs in root systems because they are sturdy, they absorb water around them (in a rain forest, this reduces the risk of drowning the eggs), and of course they are protected from being dug up by scavengers, because root systems are tougher to dig up than just plain soil.
Sounds like the Europeans use more minerals in their supplementing than we do over here, so I'm going to take an educated guess and say that is the primary reason we see more of it (eating soil) over here.
But just to be sure, those of you whose chams eat soil, do you use Miner-All??
We use more vitamins than minerals, which too much of can cause toxicity and kidney failure and a whole host of other problems, including deficiencies in minerals and even calcium, making soil-eating even more likely.
Sounds like the Europeans use more minerals in their supplementing than we do over here, so I'm going to take an educated guess and say that is the primary reason we see more of it (eating soil) over here.
But just to be sure, those of you whose chams eat soil, do you use Miner-All??
We use more vitamins than minerals, which too much of can cause toxicity and kidney failure and a whole host of other problems, including deficiencies in minerals and even calcium, making soil-eating even more likely.
Titan
New Member
Brock, I'm with you on that statement! I've been telling people here for -- aaaalong -- while why Chams are eating dirt, and all I get is argument! It is for the minerals! so up your minerals in their diet and then tell us your Chameleon still eats dirt???
All my Chameleons are supplemented with minerals. Also in all my years I have not witnessed one of my Chams eating dirt.
One other Question for those over there. Where does the water you provide your Chameleons with come from? For instance The store? or the rain? or your faucet?
All my Chameleons are supplemented with minerals. Also in all my years I have not witnessed one of my Chams eating dirt.
One other Question for those over there. Where does the water you provide your Chameleons with come from? For instance The store? or the rain? or your faucet?
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ChamNovice
New Member
What minerals do you use? where do you get them?
Titan
New Member
I use miner-all from sticky tongue. > What I have done is mix it in with my other dusting items so its blended with several of them together. And dust food source appropriately with the blend.
Secondly, I will answer this next part when I get some feedback from the Foreign Countries on the Question I asked above?
Edit: O yea forgot to add this, All My Chameleons also have had full ability to the dirt at the plant base, as I do not cover any of the dirt with
anything. and as much time as I have spent around my Chameleons over all the years. I'm sure I would have caught them eating dirt if they
needed to. But I have not seen it! as the Overseas people haven't either.
I may have the secret to all this once I get more responce.
Secondly, I will answer this next part when I get some feedback from the Foreign Countries on the Question I asked above?
Edit: O yea forgot to add this, All My Chameleons also have had full ability to the dirt at the plant base, as I do not cover any of the dirt with
anything. and as much time as I have spent around my Chameleons over all the years. I'm sure I would have caught them eating dirt if they
needed to. But I have not seen it! as the Overseas people haven't either.
I may have the secret to all this once I get more responce.
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i have an ambilobe and he was eating soil from a potted plant months ago. That freaked me out so i decided to cover it with moss, which he now eats almost everyday. He's been eating the moss for at least 3 months now!
I spray twice a day. I dont necessarily see him drink all the time. His diet mostly consists of silkworms and hornworms...sometimes crickets. I dust with calcium once or twice a week depending on how much silk vs horns hes getting and multi- vitamins once a week.
He seems fine to me...should i be worried here?
I spray twice a day. I dont necessarily see him drink all the time. His diet mostly consists of silkworms and hornworms...sometimes crickets. I dust with calcium once or twice a week depending on how much silk vs horns hes getting and multi- vitamins once a week.
He seems fine to me...should i be worried here?
Chameleon Company
Avid Member
Only if you like to worry
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
So jim any thoughts as to why they consume outside of all the previously stated reasons?
sounds like you think its possible at one time something drove them to harbor instincts to consume soil, the NEED is most likely long since gone but the instincts remain?
integrity, and taking advantage of the roots tendency to deliver and distribute moisture to incubating eggs better than when not near roots are deff theories ( that have been around for a while ) as to why a chameleon would lay near a root system. ..........among other reasons such as ( esp important in a rain forest) when it rains, the air pockets in the soil can quickly be filled with water, causing anaerobic soil, because of this some plants developed special mechanisms to provide oxygen to roots during wet times, since its wet often in a rain forest and egg shells are permeable its easy to understand why eggs would do better as a direct result of a more stable oxygen supply provided by roots. You can also consider, that having organic matter in the soil opens pores in the soil and allows water to flow deep rather than puddle on top cutting off oxygen. Its a given there will be organic matter in the soil underneath a tree or plant.
But outside of that IMHO i still think ( again because eggs are permeable ) and wild soil has all kinds of goodies in the way of Vits & minerals ect....just one example would be the skeletons of plants and animals in the soil leaving trace behind. A permeable egg, or even outside the fact of being permeable, might find ways to be benefit from the presence of such things in ways we are yet to understand......
First let me say that i personally used miner-al and miner-al O with all my chams. One 1.0 veiled was housed outside, .1 veiled housed inside. Both consumed soil. Of note is that the 1.0 housed outside, every time he ate soil it was near the trunk/roots of the tree.
do we know what the % frequency of mineral deficiency related problems are in the US compared to else where? Is there any info at all to support that US chams have more other obvious symptoms of mineral deficiencies than elsewhere? I have not seen it.......
the point of my previous post was to talk about WHY chams bury there eggs near roots, only that they recognize that there is a difference in soil with something planted VS not. i guess i could have just said that
It seems to me ( generally speaking ) the soils being consumed in the US are just soils, but mediums, VS elsewhere soils being just substrate.
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