Why give them vitamin spikes?

[kiwilulu]

Full disclosure: I am a new chameleon owner, just learning the ropes.
As my adventure with a pair of veiled begins, 4 weeks ago, I have been researching how to take the best care of them. They now have good lighting, temperature, misting system, and all the basics covered. The one thing that I have found particularly problematic is feeding and specifically supplements. I feed them crickets, worms and have started a dubia colony -my chams eat them like candy! I am feeding the dubias a mixture of dry fish food (incredibly high protein), poultry food, a hefty dose of calcium, as well as oranges and some veggies. The colony is doing very well, and I have not had a single adult die.
When I bought my first Calcium supplement (Fluckers Reptacalcium-the one that the Pet store guy recommended, ...sigh...) I realized that it had D3 100,000 IU per lb. Then I looked at ZooMed ReptiCalcium and it had 22,907 IU per kg. It quickly became obvious that there is no standard in these supplements.
When I look at most people in the forum, the standard answer for dusting is Calcium without D3 every feed, with D3 every 2 weeks and multivitamins every month. Why? I guess because the half life of Vit D3 is 2 weeks... but still, why give them a D3 spike with the consequent hypercalcemia (damage to heart, bones and kidneys), instead of using a steady low dose Vit D3 daily?
I am listing some supplements below with their D3 content so that you can see how it varies dramatically

RepCal 400,000 IU/kg
Fluckers Reptacalcium 100,000 IU/lb
Exoterra 14,740 IU/lb
ZooMed ReptiCalcium 22,907 IU/kg

 

[brownie64]

I never realized that they were that different good info to know. I have always used Repti calcium from zoo med, and have had no ill effects. I know that you can overdose your cham on d3, but they also need it to help convert the calcium when they aren't getting real sunlight. The reason I give it once a month instead of smaller amounts every day is because it's too hard to gage how much they are getting. I would think if you gave it every day the chances of overdosing would greatly increase.

 

[kiwilulu]

Exactly! You are giving a tiny dose once a month. If you gave it daily, it would be the same as giving Repcal every 3 weeks.
Most of the D3 should be synthesized using UV but the amount of D3 supplementation can easily vary 20 fold or more.
Is anyone aware of a good resource to find out what are the daily requirements for these animals?

 

[oneillchameleons]

If you can control the exact amount they are ingesting I could imagine it working. However we all know that's not the case. They may miss an insect, or leave it long enough that the dust gets cleaned off. What is the proper dosage that a chameleon needs daily? How much are they synthesizing in their bodies from UVB? It wasn't that long ago people were crushing up cuttlebone and eggshells for calcium and assuming that was enough. The reason we follow this schedule is because it works. It's been proven to be an effective supplement system by most chameleon keepers, especially on this site. I am surprised about the difference between brands though. I'll have to double check my labels.

 

[kiwilulu]

Makes you think about those cases where the cham is not happy and people seem to be doing the right thing...
Hypervitaminosis and deficiencies might be masquerading as something else because we are using one brand vs another.

Since in the forum we have the most experienced chameleon enthusiasts, maybe we can start a poll and determine what works. I understand we will not get a definitive point answer, but we can estimate a safe range.

If people start answering a short survey I will put the results together. Since were are looking at long term effects, answer the survey if you have cared for your chameleon for more than 1 year.

Who wants to play?

1) How long have you had your chameleon?
2) Species / sex / age ?
3) How often do you give calcium WITHOUT D3? Brand?
4) How often do you give calcium WITH D3? Brand?

 

[mvad]

1. 16 months
2. male veiled 1.5 years
I dust with Repashy calcium plus LoD at every feeding. He now eats staple feeders every other day. Crickets or Dubias. on inbetween days he eats 2-3 dusted superworms. I don't dust hornworms or silkies when I have them

 

[ChamDE86]

1) 1 year
2) Male Ambilobe 1.5 years
3) Dust with Repashy's Calcium Plus at every feeding. 5-6 times when he was younger and now 3-4 since he's being fed every other day. Only his hard-bodied feeders get dusted. I usually leave the soft bodied feeders as is or dust with Dinofuel. I've attached a fairly recent photo of Waldo.

 

[brownie64]

(1) Two years
(2) Jackson's, female, 2.6 years, Jackson's male, 1 year
(3) About every feeding, ReptiCalcium
(4) Once a month, ReptiCalcium with D3

 

[kinyonga]

The D3 from supplements only given twice a month should not cause a spike I don't think because D3 from supplements is ready to go and stored in the bodyto use as needed...just like prEformed vitamin A is stored and used as needed. I give it twice a month to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdosing it and hoping it produces enough from its exposure to the UVB light to have all that it needs. We give all the supplements with the hope that they supplement the diet and give the chameleon what it needs between the diet and the supplements. The diet is not what they would get in the wild anyway. No human or animal eats exactly the same thing every day in the wild so the vitamins, minerals vary from day to day anyway.

I've kept chameleons, water dragons, uromastyx, beardies, many gecko species, cone heads, helmets iguanas, iguanas, turtles/tortoises, the odd frog, etc over the last 25+ years and had good success with most of them regarding health and longevity. For example most of my veiled females have lived to be at least 6 and many have lived to be over 7 with the veileds males living even longer.. I've bred and hatched and raised quite a few of them too.

For a long time now I have used Repti-Cal phosphorous-free calcium powder at most feedings, phosphorous-free calcium/D3 powder twice a month and Herptivite twice a month. I've gutloaded crickets, roaches, superworms with a wide assortment of greens such as collards, escarole, endive, dandelion greens, kale, etc and veggies such as carrots, sweet red pepper, squash, zucchini, sweet potato.

To the best of my knowledge there is no spike that leads to any health issue when supplements are done as I've described.

 

[JGuinan007]

6 months
Female veiled 9 months old
Zoo Med ReptiCalcium every feeding
Zoo Med ReptiCalcium with D3 once a month
Zoo Med ReptiVite with D3 once a month