Why I Hate the Wild Caught Trade

[MissMaisie]

I want to clarify my original post and I am unsure I will be able to articulate the point I was trying to make.

I am not grieving losing this particular chameleon. I have/had no emotional attachment to him other than he didn't deserve this and he had beautiful eyes when I first saw him. I was not planning to buy him. He was not a beloved pet. He was simply a magnificent creature that I knew was doomed if someone who knew how to deal with a wildcaught didn't step in immediately. I put as much effort and money into trying to save him as I would have for one of my favorite animals.

I am grieving the whole wild caught industry of which I am a part of.

I am grieving that this magnificent animal ended his life this way.

I am grieving thinking about what he looked like a couple of weeks ago roaming his domain in perfect health.

I am grieving the loss of his magnificence.

This isn't about me and my emotions but what happens to thousands and thousands and thousands of chameleons that are snatched out of their habitat. I appreciate the condolences, but I feel like a fraud to accept them. I'm not grieving the loss of this animal, but the loss and abuse of them all if that makes any sense.

Exactly why I would never buy a WC chameleon, only long term expert breeders should deal with wild caught species no matter what animal it is.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Only a thought here, the lemonade out of lemon thing I do to many of you, but have you considered taking those pretty decent necropsy photos to the fools who did the importing and make the effort to put a little heat on them so crap rolls downhill to the fools who they bought from? Sometimes that will have an effect, other time not. I did something similar in the 90's and tossed a bunch of film photos of a few necropsies at my wholesaler and told him next time I get shit like that from him I'm sending him the bill for the vet work and in general making it hard for him to sell stuff to other pet stores. Quality went up in a month after that, apparently he bitched at the people on the collecting end about not buying from them anymore and the animals came in 'better' for a little while.

Just a thought. If anything however this is one of those examples of leave it at the store and let the business take the loss so maybe they reconsider things a little. Nobody could have saved that one.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Only a thought here, the lemonade out of lemon thing I do to many of you, but have you considered taking those pretty decent necropsy photos to the fools who did the importing and make the effort to put a little heat on them so crap rolls downhill to the fools who they bought from? Sometimes that will have an effect, other time not. I did something similar in the 90's and tossed a bunch of film photos of a few necropsies at my wholesaler and told him next time I get shit like that from him I'm sending him the bill for the vet work and in general making it hard for him to sell stuff to other pet stores. Quality went up in a month after that, apparently he bitched at the people on the collecting end about not buying from them anymore and the animals came in 'better' for a little while.

Just a thought. If anything however this is one of those examples of leave it at the store and let the business take the loss so maybe they reconsider things a little. Nobody could have saved that one.

Thanks for the suggestion. I think I will.

You know, I didn't think he was in bad shape when I bought him. Joel would be the better judge, but he didn't look bad to me when I picked him up. He was unboxed (from Tanzania) late Thursday and I had him home Friday afternoon. Once Joel left, I was in constant contact with Joel, sending pictures, monitoring his colors and getting advice. I was pretty darn shocked when I opened him up and saw his lungs. He didn't seem to be in respiratory distress, although in hind sight, he did tilt his nose up. Looking at all the fractures to his ribs and his lungs, I was astounded he made it as long as he did. A week with me, four days in transit, plus however long he was held in Tanzania after capture. There wasn't a speck of fat in his belly and the fractures had a pretty solid callus on them, so who knows how long he was held after capture.

I was part of a conversation a year ago between three herpetologists from the San Antonio zoo and the importer about the condition of wild-caught animals. It was just after the second import of quads came in. The importer had just received a Madagascar shipment and brought out a spectacular-looking big Parsons without a mark on his body. The importer said it was about how much the animal was worth, and the Madagascar animals were worth many times what the Cameroon or Tanzania animals were worth so the exporters took good care of them and packed them up well.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

If the collector paying all the field rats for the animals tells them the animals can't be hurt, guess what?

It all comes down to the guy paying the collectors, if they just say that simple thing regardless of the $$$ the collectors tend to be a little better about it. That's all you shoot for. It starts with you making the person who sold you the animal feel some heat and understand what you want. If they don't care enough to get in touch with their supplier then you don't buy from them anymore. Anyway, I could type it all out step by step but the short version is you have to first get the retailer to even listen.

 

[jajeanpierre]

If the collector paying all the field rats for the animals tells them the animals can't be hurt, guess what?

It all comes down to the guy paying the collectors, if they just say that simple thing regardless of the $$$ the collectors tend to be a little better about it. That's all you shoot for. It starts with you making the person who sold you the animal feel some heat and understand what you want. If they don't care enough to get in touch with their supplier then you don't buy from them anymore. Anyway, I could type it all out step by step but the short version is you have to first get the retailer to even listen.

The retailer/importer will listen to me.

I appreciate your suggestions and particularly your helping me clarify what I want the importer to do and how to approach him to affect a change.

I would like to ask a vet to have a look at the pictures and write something up so he isn't just hearing a lay person's interpretation of the necropsy, but a vet's opinion. I need to go through all the photos and get a photo shop to print them off.

Thanks you've helped me a lot.

 

[JaniP]

This is terrible and I am very sorry for the loss

You've made a wonderful PSA, thank you for posting this!

 

[Carlton]

Only a thought here, the lemonade out of lemon thing I do to many of you, but have you considered taking those pretty decent necropsy photos to the fools who did the importing and make the effort to put a little heat on them so crap rolls downhill to the fools who they bought from? Sometimes that will have an effect, other time not. I did something similar in the 90's and tossed a bunch of film photos of a few necropsies at my wholesaler and told him next time I get shit like that from him I'm sending him the bill for the vet work and in general making it hard for him to sell stuff to other pet stores. Quality went up in a month after that, apparently he bitched at the people on the collecting end about not buying from them anymore and the animals came in 'better' for a little while.

Just a thought. If anything however this is one of those examples of leave it at the store and let the business take the loss so maybe they reconsider things a little. Nobody could have saved that one.

There is truth in this. If you don't accept this kind of thing and tell the source you won't support such poor treatment of their animals it can have an effect. Just as we tell others to do for bad pet shops. I've been fairly lucky in the wc melleri and other chams I've kept. Only a couple of them were purchased but the rest were rescued from other people who got in over their heads with them. The three melleri I had were all full adults. One was in beautiful condition and was healthy for years. The other two had their issues from day one. Still, the first time I attempted to "order" a specific species WC through a pet shop wholesaler, it was a disaster. When the poor thing arrived it was not only the wrong species, but paper dry, thin as a rail, and dying. the shop staff was shocked as well. No one including a pretty decent vet could give the little thing more than a few additional hours of misery. I was heartbroken and furious. But something good did come out of it. The shop "fired" this wholesaler and sent them the autopsy pics to drive the point home.

There are exotics hobbyists who can't bring themselves to continue with their species of choice after seeing too many of these tragedies. I know a couple who eventually became serious advocates for halting all wildlife trade. While I completely understand why its just too hard on their hearts to keep going, I also feel that some of the animals do their species a very good turn by educating people to care about them...and if they can't interact or even see them in reality they just don't give a da#* about them.

 

[Chase]

There was a young Melleri in one of the cages that was standing up against the glass on his hind legs. He had a curvature to his spine and ribs that looked as though it had been made by a branch/stick two or three inches in diameter. We thought a branch/log must have fallen on his back when he was younger. Joel and I looked at him for a long time, marveling that he could have survived an injury. You had to see it to believe it--his back was and ribs were caved in. We both thought it had to be an old injury that was healed since he was alive and moving around, reasoning that it just couldn't be from capture. How could it be from capture since capture and export are so brutal? We just couldn't imagine in a million years the juvenile surviving such a catastrophic injury and import. Silly me for thinking that could ever have happened out in nature from something falling on his back or maybe a predator grabbing him.

I hate that it happened the way it did Janet. But I knew it wasn't your lack of efforts that did him in. I knew there had to be something internally going on to make him crash that quickly.

I literally hate the import process for melleri. I hate the import process for most chameleons, but melleri just don't bounce back as easy as some species and I don't think they are field collected with the touch necessary to avoid injury. The poor little one that Janet is referring too with the back issue......it is like nothing I have ever seen. He was literally making a "c" with his body, top of head to tail. It just fires you up when you see things like that.

I know what you mean Janet by saying you are "part of the import process". I feel the same way all the time. Excluding my Ambilobe, Nosy Faly, Veileds and of course Cato, all of my chameleons are WC. The part that is the hardest for me is having to be logical and come to the understanding that all the melleri we saw will more than likely be dead by the end of next month. The sub adults I picked are eating and doing well which makes me sooooo happy. But I think, should I have brought more of them home?? In all reality I picked the ones that I felt were the healthiest and had the best chance for survival. The poor gravid female just broke my heart, that is why I had to take her. When she died, I had almost the exact same thought go through my head that you said above.....I thought, just a couple of weeks ago you were living life in your natural habitat and now you are dead being buried in a yard in Texas. That is the reality of the import process to me.

What makes me keep going, is the fact that the gravid female could have been purchased by anyone....ANYONE. I've learned money is rarely turned down, so a person with zero experience could have bought her and just thought she was fat never knowing she was gravid. She may never of had a chance to lay her eggs. The other two I brought home could very well be sitting in a glass aquarium somewhere slowing dying from stress and never having the chance to survive. The import process is brutal no doubt. That is the motivation I need to keep trying to breed these animals for blood lines. My goal isn't to get one successful breeding so I can make a little money...I could care less about the money. We need to make all the efforts we can to establish blood lines for all chameleon species that are regularly part of the trade. That should be the ultimate motivation.

I think it was the end of last year, ChamEO received a C. oshaughnesseyi that had a curved spine, sort of like what you're describing. After taking her to the vet and having a radiograph done, the vet determined she actually hatched from the egg with the deformity. I had never seen anything like this, but it was interesting to see (also very sad).

You did all you could Janet. I was having a discussion with someone about the import process recently. When the imported species have such a cheap price, they simply do not care. Why do you think no one really works with C. senegalensis, aside from the fact they can be hard to establish, they are really cheap and why would someone want to buy one for $50 as a CH when they could get one for 15? I've seen some fresh senegalensis and the condition they were in was just devastating. Thousands of them are exported every year, with a guaranteed death once they get here due to the poor care during the process.

NOTE: This is not my picture, it is the property of ChamEO.

Chase

 

[OldChamKeeper]

The retailer/importer will listen to me.

I appreciate your suggestions and particularly your helping me clarify what I want the importer to do and how to approach him to affect a change.

I would like to ask a vet to have a look at the pictures and write something up so he isn't just hearing a lay person's interpretation of the necropsy, but a vet's opinion. I need to go through all the photos and get a photo shop to print them off.

Thanks you've helped me a lot.

You seem interested in trying to find a way to make some change come out of this, hence me helping. I'm tried of the rants from the others over petco this or petsmart that. What you have the unique ability to do ideal with some of these issues directly. You cant talk to petco or petsmart.

I'm just tired of seeing people re-invent the wheel. I did this back in the 80's and 90's when Parson's were coming off the planes dead. So I learned how to apply a little change via pressure. Good luck. Take a stick with you.

 

[Nursemaia]

Oh my I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I was looking into getting a Mellers but when I couldn't find any CB or rescued ones I gave up on owning one of them. I can't support the pet trade in that manner so it looks like I'm sticking with my veiled, Jacksons, and panthers.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I sent these photos plus quite a few more to Ferretsinmyshoes who is a vet here on the forum. My own vet let me down by refusing to comment on my photos since she hadn't done the necropsy herself. I think it is time for me to find a new vet.....

Here are Dayna's comments. She did not come to the same conclusion I originally did although she couldn't completely rule out trauma as the cause of his death. She's the one with training and experience, not me, so I must accept her findings. It is a good lesson for me in many ways. First, it reminds me that I am a lay person without veterinary training so I don't always understand what I see. Secondly, I learned a lot about what was within the normal range when I look at a necropsy I have done myself.

Thank you Dayna for looking at the pictures, and especially a big thank you for all the good you do on this forum. I wonder if you have saved more chameleons just by your comments on CF than you have saved at your clinic simply because you reach so many chameleon owners here.

Below are Ferretsinmyshoes' comments:

I will comment on what I can tell from the pictures, although I don't know if it will be enough to say what you're hoping for unfortunately.

If the cham was collected right before export 2 weeks ago then the ribs would not have had enough time to form a callus yet as that can take over a month or more with their slow metabolism. Bones can take 4+ months even to heal enough to be stable in a lot of reptile species. So if he was truly knocked out of a tree first to cause those fractures then he was in the importer care for quite a while before export, which is probably where his health suffered most. I have seen small nodules on ribs like that in a good handful of chameleon necropsies before that I know didn't have any trauma. So by themselves aren't enough for me to condemn. That is also not where I'd expect to see fractures from that kind of injury. I'd expect a more dorsoventral line from someone reaching up with a stick rather than craniocaudal like they were on the same level as the cham. The bruising you're noting is quite mild, and is probably even just be some post-mortem blood pooling. If he was hit hard enough to break ribs I'd expect a very large region of severe bruising.

The lungs quite honestly don't look bad. You will see some dark red/brown fluid come out of the lungs and trachea as a post-mortem change. More of it in mammals due to differences in lung structures but reptiles can have it too. The lungs look very well vascularized as I'd expect for such a large species. Their color and pattern is very symmetrical between the two lungs. If one looked different then I'd be more concerned. They don't appear to have abnormal fluid or material in them as they're still transparent when spread out.

I agree that fat stores are diminished to basically non-existent. That indicates he has been in declining health for quite some time. Usually at least a month or more depending on his starting status. I can't completely rule out trauma but unfortunately the evidence isn't obvious enough for me to be completely on board. As much as I'd like to help your cause, this may just be importation stress and failure to thrive seen so commonly in Mellers especially.

 

[WilcoxAE]

Oh gosh. That's horrible. You are a real trooper for giving the guy at least some last good days. Animals have feelings, fear, and love and the thought of someone wacking it out of a tree makes me want to take out the S.O.B. that did this to a defenseless critter.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Oh gosh. That's horrible. You are a real trooper for giving the guy at least some last good days. Animals have feelings, fear, and love and the thought of someone wacking it out of a tree makes me want to take out the S.O.B. that did this to a defenseless critter.

Thanks for your kind thoughts, but to be honest, I don't think he had any good days since his capture. Unfortunately, knocking them out of a tree is a common way to collect them. An experienced reptile vet looked at my necropsy photos and didn't think there was enough evidence to conclude he died of trauma as I had thought.

 

[KLowery88]

For the ribs, could the nodules be where there is some articulation (I think with the sternum? I could be wrong, but they have that little joint that lets them flatten and appear bigger)? Or is it something else?

 

[jajeanpierre]

I think they are partially healed fractures. Here's another picture that maybe shows it more clearly (the second and third rib from the left). They weren't rigid and hadn't completely healed.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

The real lesson learned, if you want to really learn what happened to a chameleon, have a solid vet do the full necropsy and then your paperwork is official. I'm not saying to not do one yourself at all, I've done a few in my time but in those cases it was for my own learning process with no larger goal in mind. If you want to try and use the dead to teach the living beyond your own personal growth you'll need something more official. Besides we can always learn something from the professionals.

 

[jpowell86]

You know one of the biggest factors that most people don't think about is the amount of time that the animal spends sitting in between capture and shipment. Yes, the way they are captured is probably deplorable at best. But, if we were able to get our hands on them a week after their injury, we might have a higher success rate when it comes to treatment/acclimation/survival. I have always felt that these animals probably sit in terrible cages in terrible conditions for months before shipment. I have done necropsies myself on some the melleri that have passed in my care. There is absolutely no chance in hell that their fat reserves were depleted over the course of shipment. I have opened adults up that were literally skin and bones. And I'm talking about animals that should be over 350 grams at least. I refuse to believe that was the shape that they were found in.

Usually at least a month or more depending on his starting status.

That's why this line of her report stuck out to me. I'm glad that she hit on that topic. Yes, there were probably multiple things that you were fighting against Janet. But, overall...you were caring for an animal that had probably been through months of hell...not just injured and shipped. I think what is amazing is how fast a melleri can go from sitting on a branch looking like they may acclimate to crashing and dead. But, seeing their body habitus upon arrival...is it really that big of a shock???

 

[jajeanpierre]

You know one of the biggest factors that most people don't think about is the amount of time that the animal spends sitting in between capture and shipment. Yes, the way they are captured is probably deplorable at best. But, if we were able to get our hands on them a week after their injury, we might have a higher success rate when it comes to treatment/acclimation/survival. I have always felt that these animals probably sit in terrible cages in terrible conditions for months before shipment. I have done necropsies myself on some the melleri that have passed in my care. There is absolutely no chance in hell that their fat reserves were depleted over the course of shipment. I have opened adults up that were literally skin and bones. And I'm talking about animals that should be over 350 grams at least. I refuse to believe that was the shape that they were found in.



That's why this line of her report stuck out to me. I'm glad that she hit on that topic. Yes, there were probably multiple things that you were fighting against Janet. But, overall...you were caring for an animal that had probably been through months of hell...not just injured and shipped. I think what is amazing is how fast a melleri can go from sitting on a branch looking like they may acclimate to crashing and dead. But, seeing their body habitus upon arrival...is it really that big of a shock???

Did you think he had a chance when you saw him at the importers? When you left for home about 26 hours after we got him to a cage and under a mister?

 

[jpowell86]

Did you think he had a chance when you saw him at the importers? When you left for home about 26 hours after we got him to a cage and under a mister?

Honestly...yes. I felt like he was going to be okay because he was readily hydrating that first day we got him back to the house. Your concern with him crashing after I left had me thinking. In all reality, he was more than likely acting as strong as possible and putting off dominant vibes because he was surrounded by other melleri. Even at the store, he was in a cage with a gravid female and how many others??? I believe there were at least 15 in there. So, the state of the melleri that we saw in store was not a tell-tale indication of the health of that particular animal. I honestly kick myself for not thinking of that at the time.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thanks. I was surprised he crashed so quickly since I thought he looked reasonable in the store and for a day or two. I think you are on to something--even a dying animal will perk up and look a lot better than they really are when they feel threatened or even just stimulated. He was coming home with me anyway simply because everything was so stacked against him. Big adult Melleri just don't do well on import--even I knew that.