Why is my surgery-surviving Jackson's acting lethargic?

[szpond]

This is about to be very detailed -- thanks in advance for reading!!


Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Jackson's Cham, he's been in my care for 7 months.

Handling - I don't handle him unless he walks out onto my hand (once every two-three weeks or so)

Feeding - Only a diet of crickets - 4 per day, medium/large sized. They eat a small amount of carrot, mostly kale, mustard greens, and collard greens. These feeders are changed regularly to retain the moisture so they don't dehydrate. They live in a 10 gallon aquarium with a screen top -- lots of room to move around.

Supplements - Not sure of brand off-hand but I feed calcium with D3 once every two weeks and Multivitamin once every two weeks. Also on Monday and Tuesday I dust his crickets with calcium W/O D3. I hear this is enough for Jackson's but what do you guys think?

Watering - I have a repti-fogger attached to his tank (a very fine mist, ONLY use bottled distilled water) -- this goes on 4 or so times a day to keep the humidity up when I'm not home. I also mist him 3-5 times a day to get the leaves wet. I have a dripper that I run every day for about 20 minutes -- this I do twice a day. I see him drinking regularly from the dripper.

Fecal Description - Never been tested for parasites but this is my next move. My baby veiled just passed of parasites. They were kept completely separate however -- I washed thoroughly between feeding them both. She wasn't healthy to begin with and I didn't want my Jackson's to get whatever she had. Feces is normal -- not runny, dark brown, perfect football shape. Urate (no matter how much he drinks) is mostly white with some orange edges. I think maybe because of the carrots the crickets are eating? I only offer them a small bit of carrot nowadays.

History - I bought him from a major chain pet store where he wasn't being kept in good conditions. 3 months after me getting him, I saw he had developed two growths -- one on the base of his tail and one above his right shoulder. I had blood tests, X-rays, etc done and he got the one on the base of his tail removed. However, the vet said the one above his shoulder was nothing --- she made an incision as if to remove the growth but said there was nothing there -- just a hardening of the skin? Photos of the x-ray below.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) His winter cage is a glass with a screen top, not sure on dimensions right now but I'll get on that.

Lighting - I have a 60W incandescent raised up I believe 3-4 inches off the screen. The 5.0 UVB is sitting on top of the screen. I have it set for 12 hours of light time but I'm going to decrease to 10 hours for the winter.

Temperature - At the bottom of the cage with my digital thermometer I have seen about 71-72. Basking is between 80-83 degrees always. He has been spending a lot of time here. All temperatures in-between are found throughout the cage.

Humidity - As said before, I use the repti-fogger to maintain a high humidity. I haven't misted in about an hour or the fogger hasn't been on and I just saw that the terrarium is still at 60%. It gets higher obviously around misting/fogging time.

Plants - I did have an XL pothos in there but it was not thriving. I've nursed it back to health and am going to put it back in soon.

Placement - High off the floor and not directly by any vents/windows are shut (blinds).

Location - Near Detroit, Michigan.

Alright, sorry about that novel! Anyway, I've noticed within the week that Max has not been as active as usual. He may be ready to shed again, but I've yet to see him get moody before shedding for my 7 months of having him. He is eating and drinking well, I see him drink every day. Also does not leave any crickets. Has no trouble using his tongue. He'll just sit in the same spot, when typically he would be really excited to come out whenever I opened the terrarium...

Anyway -- here is my main concern (I will be making a vet appointment) -- the bump above his right shoulder has been getting bigger. It is free-moving under his skin. No painful reaction upon touching. Close to his tongue though, nervous about removal. Surgery to remove the growth above his tail was about $450. I hope I can find the funds for this one.

Here are a lot of photos for you guys to judge. He is typically very light green but lately has not been...also, he is very easily angered (this is new) by me spraying even though I don't spray him directly.

Here is the first photo of him I took after his growth removal was a success and had scabbed over (you can also see the red above his right shoulder) September of this year:

I found him today not holding on with his back leg(s):

Here here is this morning just laying on the vine. Back feet not grasping.

Here is his set-up. Weirdly he likes to sit right under where the fogger will hit him. You can see the hot light is raised up.

In this one you can see the size of the bump above his arm (taken today):

Alright, and here is the x-ray to show you guys his bone density:

The spot his surgery was has healed fantastically! He had to deal with oral antibiotics/painkillers for quite some time.


Thanks for looking, friends!

 

[Action Jackson]

Hi, sorry to hear you're having problems with your Jackson's. There are a few things that need to be addressed IMO. First and foremost is his cage. Screen cages are best for Jackson's as well Panthers and Veileds. Glass enclosures would be best for some smaller species IMO. Jackson's need a well ventilated enclosure. 18x18x36 minimum size.

Second, watering and humidity. Jackson's do indeed need a fair amount of watering. Using a dripper is a great way to slowly provide water so they have time to see it, move to it and drink. Misting with a automatic mister is also a good way to provide water. An auto mister on a timer will give them adequate time to drink. Unfortunatly using either in a glass enclosure will create standing water and drainage problems. No good. I personally would not use a fogger unless you have no humidity. If he drinks, he'll be fine IMO. I think all the moisture you are providing will cause a number of ailments, including skin issues.

Third, lighting. In a glass enclosure regulating temperatures is difficult, especially one that small. Jacksons don't like being hot all the time. In fact they like cooler temperatures, much cooler that 70 degrees. The CFL build is also not ideal. When you have that much moisture in a glass cage with a constant heat lamp and stagnant air it WILL create problems for your little guy.

Your suppliments seem fine. Your feeding is ok. More variety would be better.

If your interested I could tell you what kind of set up would work better IMO.

Good luck with him. Horns rule!

 

[szpond]

I have a two foot by two foot by three foot screen cage for the summer. Living in Detroit with minimal heating during the winter, I'm afraid glass is all that I can give him that will stay humid enough and warm enough.

Thank you for your input! Every two weeks he either gets a mealworm or a superworm. I've given him a couple of wax worms also.

I rotate what type of food I feed the crickets as well.

 

[szpond]

Also - about the drainage problems.

I have the dripper catch in a bowl at the bottom, I think you can see it in the picture. Also the paper towel is 3 to 4 layers thick, and I change it daily it does get moist.

 

[Action Jackson]

I'm not sure how cold your house gets at night but my Jackson's regularly see temps of 50 degrees at night. A healthy Jackson's can handle temperature down that low or close to it. I personally would keep him in a screen cage and block off two or three sides.

My Jackson's saw a temperature range of 48 to 90 degrees the last couple days. They are housed outside.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

I will agree with Action for the most part, but I have raised a male jackson in a terrarium for the greater part of his life (up to this point) successfully... Terrariums are fine, and will work for most species given the size requirements are met.

BUT... The main difference between our set ups is that mine was fully planted (How a terrarium should be) and yours is bare bottomed.. Which allows for water to sit. It can work but its not ideal for a terrarium. Your boy will need either A) a larger terrarium soon or B) a larger screen cage.

Im not sure what the bump is, but it appears to be an abscess of some sort... Hopefully someone with greater knowledge of these things will chime in soon...

Whereabouts are you located? Im in Roseville...

P.s. Which vet did you go to? Parkway?

 

[Action Jackson]

Can we see a picture of your set up?

I will agree with Action for the most part, but I have raised a male jackson in a terrarium for the greater part of his life (up to this point) successfully... Terrariums are fine, and will work for most species given the size requirements are met.

BUT... The main difference between our set ups is that mine was fully planted (How a terrarium should be) and yours is bare bottomed.. Which allows for water to sit. It can work but its not ideal for a terrarium. Your boy will need either A) a larger terrarium soon or B) a larger screen cage.

Im not sure what the bump is, but it appears to be an abscess of some sort... Hopefully someone with greater knowledge of these things will chime in soon...

Whereabouts are you located? Im in Roseville...

P.s. Which vet did you go to? Parkway?

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Can we see a picture of your set up?

Absolutely, this was his set up until roughly 1-2 months ago. The screen panels are covered in plexiglass during the cold months. However he did get a lot of outside time this year, which tops any indoor set up of course.

He is now housed in a 24x24x48 screen cage since he obviously outgrew this one. Which was a 18x24x36

 

[szpond]

I'll work on getting some plexiglass to make our summer cage suitable for the colder times. I'd say the temperature doesn't go below 60 at night but I always had 65 degrees engraved in my brain for Jackson's.


I took him to two places - Canton Animal Hospital where there is apparently a reptile expert (was no help whatsoever and hurt my Cham) and then took him to Sheehy Animal Hospital in Livonia. Dr. Sheehy knew a minimum amount on the Jackson's but she did her homework, and here he is fully recovered. Was a growth and not an abscess, but I didn't have the money for an examination of the removed mass.

Home Depot a good place for plexi? Can they cut it there?

 

[szpond]

I always have trouble keeping my hibiscus and pothos healthy in the terrariums. What do you guys think on plant lights? Do you use any?

 

[Action Jackson]

I use a dual florescent fixture with one 5.0 reptisun and one 6500 bulb for plant growth. I use ficus trees as they do best for me.

I always have trouble keeping my hibiscus and pothos healthy in the terrariums. What do you guys think on plant lights? Do you use any?

 

[coldbloodedAL]

Home depot has plexi but they wont cut it, at least over.here... A band saw or scoring it good and a clean break can work(Be sure to wear gloves and safety glasses.
Or some painters plastic and tape will work just as well, not as pleasing to the eye though.

I use a 6500k fluorescent bulb in all my set ups. The pothos in that cage was 6" long when I planted it, when I pulled it out it was 8 feet long! Pothos usually dont need much to survive but give them more than they need and theyll go nuts.
Hibiscus can be tricky, but oddly enough ive had better luck with them than anything else. Bright light, lots of water, and well draining substrates do them well in my experience

 

[sandrachameleon]

... Screen cages are best for Jackson's as well Panthers and Veileds.

Im going to dissagree with this statement.
Glass / solid walled enclosures are TOTALLY FINE so long as there is a screen top and ventilation ports or strip low down on the cage somewhere. Indeed, solid walled enclosures are better for retaining humidity and regulating heat, especially if your house/ambient humdity and temp is not close to what the animal needs. You also dont have to worry about toenails being pulled out from crawling on screen.

Anyways, what matters is keeping the right environment inside the enclosure, whatever it is made of.

It looks like you have poor quality temp/ humidity guage - it might be hotter in there than you think it is, and they dont like to be hot.

I would strongly suggest you start feeding him a variety of prey, not just crickets. By Variety I dont mean adding the occassional mealworm or superworm (or worse, waxworms). I suggest you work on your gutloading too. Kale and Collards are not a good choice for regular/frequent gutloading use. Great for including in a varied gutload, but not as the main items most of the time. Especially for an animal that has been on antibioitics that may be hard on the kidney, liver, digestive tract.

More foliage / real plants wouldnt hurt.

I used a table saw to cut the plexi and acrylic sheets used for my cage doors.

 

[cricketkilla]

Home depot has plexi but they wont cut it, at least over.here... A band saw or scoring it good and a clean break can work(Be sure to wear gloves and safety glasses.
Or some painters plastic and tape will work just as well, not as pleasing to the eye though.

I use a 6500k fluorescent bulb in all my set ups. The pothos in that cage was 6" long when I planted it, when I pulled it out it was 8 feet long! Pothos usually dont need much to survive but give them more than they need and theyll go nuts.
Hibiscus can be tricky, but oddly enough ive had better luck with them than anything else. Bright light, lots of water, and well draining substrates do them well in my experience

I use those white table covers you can get at walmart in the party section, they're like a dollar for a few of them. I just cut them to fit and use clear packing tape to secure it to the top and bottom.

As far as your chams shoulder, x-ray films aren't the best for tissue exposure, but it doesn't look like there is a mass there. Does anyone else think it kind of looks like gular edema? To the OP, Gular Edema is a build up of fluid in the tissue that in some cases is due to over supplementation. By no means am I a veterinarian, but I've had some experience reading x-rays and MRI's through some pre-med. Anyways, he's a handsome man and I hope he gets to feeling better and back to his normal googly eyed self.

 

[Action Jackson]

I included "IMO" several times in that post. I know what works for me won't work for everybody else. There are just to many variables. I've been keeping Jackson's in screen cages for many years, 17 in fact and have never experienced the sink issues I see on here so much.

I think a properly set up glass enclosure that is the right size will work fine for someone who doesn't live in a climate suitable for the species kept. To me size is a big part of the equation. A glass enclosure 18x18x36 can get expensive and IMO an adult Jackson should have a larger cage than that.

I totally agree with this statement.
"Anyways, what matters is keeping the right environment inside the enclosure, whatever it is made of."

I just worry that in a glass enclosure like the one shown that thermal regulation would be a big problem for a Jackson's over time. IMO

Im going to dissagree with this statement.
Glass / solid walled enclosures are TOTALLY FINE so long as there is a screen top and ventilation ports or strip low down on the cage somewhere. Indeed, solid walled enclosures are better for retaining humidity and regulating heat, especially if your house/ambient humdity and temp is not close to what the animal needs. You also dont have to worry about toenails being pulled out from crawling on screen.

Anyways, what matters is keeping the right environment inside the enclosure, whatever it is made of.

 

[coldbloodedAL]

I will agree with Sandras statement as well... I wasnt trying to be negative towards you, just trying to keep people from the "all glass is bad" motto that rolls around here so much..

Climates and conditions can alter the ways we keep them. That being said, I can keep my jacksons in screen cages just fine now due to the 10+ nozzles and lights i have running in my cham room, relative humidity is up and temps are steadier. And the fact the my 140g jackson outgrew his smaller terrarium...

But back on point... Id recommend finding another vet, parkway exotics is decent in knowledge and prices. There is a good cham vet in the lansing/okemos area but I cannot remember the name at the moment, ill find it though..

 

[sandrachameleon]

A glass enclosure 18x18x36 can get expensive and IMO an adult Jackson should have a larger cage than that.

Truly. Darn heavy too.

But there are other things that can form solid walls, plexi isnt heavy or expensive, painted or otherwise sealed wood can work, ....
screen covered with plastic is another common choice

 

[szpond]

All right, you guys! I brought out my screen cage and I found some blue (thin) plastic table covers. Do you think this is okay? It's a very thin plastic, but because he is a Jackson's, won't be exposed to much heat at all.


I've taken out his basking bulb and have been watching the temperature. He is getting better by the day, it seems.

About the screen cage-- I covered 3 sides with this blue plastic and secured it with duct tape on all edges. It looks pretty awesome. Just wanted some input about the type of plastic I used before I set it up for him.

Also - this cage had originally had wood bolted into the sides, so it has holes - i just covered these with duct tape as well on the inside and outside. Is that alright?

 

[sandrachameleon]

Any kind of plastic will do, since you wont have much in the way of heat near it. Plastic outgasses nasty fumes, so if its fresh from a package let it air out for awhile outdoors before you use it. The tape is likely fine just keep an eye that it doesnt loosen up with the heat and humidity and allow your cham to escape.
Cage changes may not be relevant for solving your chams problem.

Seeing the vet again (or going to a different vet) is likely not a bad idea.