Why only certain cross breeds?
- Thread starter Ellron
- Start date
Kent67
Retired Moderator
1. Until someone offers a suggestion (that actually works) as to how to keep the region of origin of wc females straight, isn't this going nowhere? Some exporter/importer combos here don't even give/receive locale data with their shipments.
2. How come nobody's mentioned the males of "pure" cbb locales that look nothing like their wild counterparts? Aren't those also a problem?
3. Should we also try to figure out the original calyptratus locales and keep them "pure," too?
2. How come nobody's mentioned the males of "pure" cbb locales that look nothing like their wild counterparts? Aren't those also a problem?
3. Should we also try to figure out the original calyptratus locales and keep them "pure," too?
Texas Panther Man
New Member
I would absolutely love to add some wc female blood to my line. To this point i havent because of the unknown factors involved. I have exp with pardalis but I cant be 100% certain what Im buying is what im getting. So I have only purchased cb with pics of sires and dams for that reason.
People can say how beautiful crosses are but why are they really producing them? Lets be honest its about the $$$. They want to breed and sell babies and they dont want to have to search for the proper mate to go with their male or female. It took me months to find a female for my male that was unrelated and of the same locale.
Sandra, you love and care for your chams but after they are sold how do you know these people wont sell them off down the road as a misslabled female?
You cant possibly control that and thats the real problem.
People can say how beautiful crosses are but why are they really producing them? Lets be honest its about the $$$. They want to breed and sell babies and they dont want to have to search for the proper mate to go with their male or female. It took me months to find a female for my male that was unrelated and of the same locale.
Sandra, you love and care for your chams but after they are sold how do you know these people wont sell them off down the road as a misslabled female?
You cant possibly control that and thats the real problem.
Nixehface
New Member
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Sandra, you love and care for your chams but after they are sold how do you know these people wont sell them off down the road as a misslabled female?
You cant possibly control that and thats the real problem.
I am in touch with most of the people who have purchased from me. They are pet keepers, not breeders.
But if they did choose to breed, or sell off to someone else a female I sold them - THAT IS OKAY. I do not need to control this, and neither do you. Everyone can enjoy this hobby in their own way. If someone wants an inexpensive cross female (or male) as a pet, why stop them? It doesnt hurt anyone else.
As Olimpia said, mis-representing a female can happen with pures just as easily as crosses, and mislabelling can happen right from the source (imports). that's why those concerned with keeping a very particular colouration will buy from breeders with the same particular concerns, not from my friend down the road or a pet store.
I say again - Anyone who buys from a pet store or back room breeder is getting what they pay for. Anyone who wants a "pure" will get it from a reputable breeder with well documented lineage. When I wanted a "true blue" nose be, that's what I did and I was willing to pay for the privilege.
And again agreeing with Olimpia - there is room for both options
Anyone who thinks that the "pure" animals in capitvity are in any way helpful for repopulating the wild are misinformed. I repeat - Our capitve "pure" animals a few generations in are not the same as those in the wild. Generally, We do not cull those that would not survive in the wild. Generally, our genetics pool is quite a bit smaller than in the wild. Generally, those that are kept from breeding are the brightest, flashiest colours, the ones that will sell offspring for a higher price, Not necessarily what would have done well in the wild. Our "pure" animals are not preserving the natural locales. More likely the collection of the wc animals needed for keeping the captive populations healthy is diminishing the wild.
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pantherlover
New Member
the issue is that not everyone who buys a crossed female has the same ethics & respect for what we know as pure locales. in the end, if they go to a petstore, who knows where they will end up. a lot of people dont have the same respect for these beautiful creatures as the people who are posting on this link. good breeders are people who breed for the love of it & for the money but when the love is non existant in some, where does that leave us? for the people who just want an awesome pet and will never have intentions of breeding, great. for the most part, people wouldnt be on here reading about & discussing chams day in, day out if they didnt genuinely love these creatures. with that being said, if one chooses to do a cross morph project, it is ones responsibility to label them as what they are. thats the big issue people have. how can anybody guarantee that the offspring of a crossed clutch will all end up in the hands of people who just want a great pet would obide by the ethics of sales if they ever did decide to breed. someone who doesnt care would try to squeeze any extra penny they could out of each animal. im sure you all know not everybody has the same respect seeing as how we see chameleon riding chicken videos on youtube & it angers all of us. not everyone who owns a cham cares as much as, say, the people on this link. i agree that dogs are not a good example because even most of the pure breed we know today are mans creation at some point in history. they were cross bred for their traits to perform tasks better, not for looks. so crossing two dogs that are mans creation to begin with for looks is different from breeding chameleons to improve or change their looks. although i personally perfer pure locales, my point is not to frown upon people who own or breed crosses, its more to inform the people who are thinking about doing it & letting them know the right ay of going about it if its gonna be done. good debate guys & gals. im on a construction site in an excavator & im making people angry at me right now. lol. hope my boss doesnt show up right now. happy chaming
OldSkoolxReasons
New Member
Honestly I see no problem with it. Anyone who is going to buy captive hatched babies is taking the same risk as buying a panther cham in a pet store or from a shady breeder. You don't know where the female came from for certain, if she was housed with males along the way of a different locale, or just mislabeled. Cross breeding should be no problem to most people on the forum as most people on the forum will only buy from a respected breeder, if you buy a cheap chameleon from a random person what your saving in money could very well end up getting you a cross bred panther. And furthermore I don't think any of you would call some crosses unappealing if you didn't know they were crosses. If you believed for example Sandra's cross gimili was a pure ambilobe he would be one of the best looking red/orange body ones there was but since she has told you it is a cross not it is somehow less aesthetically attractive? That makes no sense to me. In terms of breeding it may be less attractive but color wise it is still gorgeous and looks the same no matter what locale of Panther Chameleon it is, since there are no subspecies they are all technically still one species.
Justin
Edit: How is breeding for crosses purely for money when they sell for less and are far less desired. If you're making that argument breeding pure locales would actually be the money grubbers because they are fetching a higher price. I'm not saying pure breeders are money grubber's, because I am one, I'm just stating how asinine the example of people crossing panthers for money is.
Justin
Edit: How is breeding for crosses purely for money when they sell for less and are far less desired. If you're making that argument breeding pure locales would actually be the money grubbers because they are fetching a higher price. I'm not saying pure breeders are money grubber's, because I am one, I'm just stating how asinine the example of people crossing panthers for money is.
Nixehface
New Member
Surely if someone didn't care that much about their cham they would sell even a 'pure' bred as anything if they found someone stupid enough to fall for it....
Most pet stores dupe people into it..
I read on here somewhere that the pet shop had labelled a panthers actual name wrong and the guy bought it thinking it was a nosy chameleon or something!
Olimpia
Biologist & Ecologist
I like how no one got the point of my dog example lol. The point was not where dogs came from, that's neither here nor there, but that you can find top notch, multi generation labrador breeders and top notch poodles from the best bloodlines in the world... AND still get a mix between the two and not disrupt the order of the universe. Or with cats, most people could care less what breed their cat is and they'll get one from a shelter, but if you really wanted a top persian cat with the best bloodlines in the world, you can find a breeder for that. Is my point getting through?
There will always be breeders who breed the best "pures" in the country, and you can pay top dollar for those beauties, AND there can be breeders who offer crosses for people who want something a little different. The hobby doesn't have to collapse in on itself because some people want to breed crosses.
And, as I and other people have already said, there can be confusion even with pure locales. Right now on this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/locale-comments-40411/ the owner says the chameleon was given to him straight from the Ambanja region, as pure as they get. But other people are coming in and suggested it might be a cross. This can happen to anyone - anyone can get the wrong chameleon imported, or buy the wrong baby cham at a petstore when they're all brown, or mix up two different pure females. So to me, personally, I don't think some of the arguments against crosses really hold up very well.
But to each his own!
There will always be breeders who breed the best "pures" in the country, and you can pay top dollar for those beauties, AND there can be breeders who offer crosses for people who want something a little different. The hobby doesn't have to collapse in on itself because some people want to breed crosses.
And, as I and other people have already said, there can be confusion even with pure locales. Right now on this thread: https://www.chameleonforums.com/locale-comments-40411/ the owner says the chameleon was given to him straight from the Ambanja region, as pure as they get. But other people are coming in and suggested it might be a cross. This can happen to anyone - anyone can get the wrong chameleon imported, or buy the wrong baby cham at a petstore when they're all brown, or mix up two different pure females. So to me, personally, I don't think some of the arguments against crosses really hold up very well.
But to each his own!
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Especially the first point is exactly what I think about the topic. I would only be sure that my pardalis are "pure origin" if I'd collect them myself. The ones who are a bit deeper in the import/export business knew what's going on in the origin countries of our animals.
cambech
New Member
not rehashing just asking some questions....
Everytime i read a cross breeding thread the main concern is always pure locales for the sake of color and just "knowing" exactly what locale someone's chameleon is. doesn't the worry of genetic diversity (which is needed in every form of life in order to ensure the species survival) worry anyone. Aren't we breeding out the genetic diveristy by forbidding crosses? for example. isn't it possible that a disease could pop up one day that will effect only nosey be's but because of some small genetic difference that exists within the ambilobe population they might remain unharmed?
Once again, not arguing just trying to look at this from all perspectives. Maybe this is a stupid question..IDK.
Everytime i read a cross breeding thread the main concern is always pure locales for the sake of color and just "knowing" exactly what locale someone's chameleon is. doesn't the worry of genetic diversity (which is needed in every form of life in order to ensure the species survival) worry anyone. Aren't we breeding out the genetic diveristy by forbidding crosses? for example. isn't it possible that a disease could pop up one day that will effect only nosey be's but because of some small genetic difference that exists within the ambilobe population they might remain unharmed?
Once again, not arguing just trying to look at this from all perspectives. Maybe this is a stupid question..IDK.
antithesis123
New Member
wow, I think it's futile to try to keep panthers seperate by locale. I bet more than half of the panther chameleon owners out there couldn't tell you the difference between a Sambava an Andapa or a Ambilobe- Because they are the same species. Kudos to those who strive to make the species more beautiful! Some of the creations at Screameleons and also kammers are the most strikingly amazing and beautiful out there and they'll only get better. I'd wait in line to buy a female from some of those crosses! To each his own.
javsto
New Member
Why are there only a couple of cross bred species? Such as Ambilobe X Nosy Be and Ambanja X Ambilobe. Are other cross breeds possible? I would love to see and Nosy Be X Ambanja, my two favorites... Just wondering
would you ever try creating your own Nosy Be x Ambanja cross??
Kansascity
New Member
I agree. I adore my cross panther. I have no desire to breed him what so ever, but he is just as lovely as the rest of the “pure’s”. Personally there are many dog’s that are" MUTTS" as far a I am concerned but I don’t go around telling people the genetic issues they are causing, or may facedown the road with a designer dog! Though none the less these animals are still loved by their owners! Standard poodles are also my life and I own the best of the best, I would never think about breeding them if I did not know their lineage etc., DNA testing so on and so on my breeder has worked very hard to better the breed over many generations and it has been effective. O well to each his own.
Cainschams
New Member
Chris Jury
New Member
Why are there only a couple of cross bred species? Such as Ambilobe X Nosy Be and Ambanja X Ambilobe. Are other cross breeds possible? I would love to see and Nosy Be X Ambanja, my two favorites... Just wondering
The crosses you're talking about are all the same species (Furcifer pardalis), though at least some of these populations might be on their way toward speciation. As for desirability of crossing Panthers from different locales, and the feasibility of avoiding it, a lot has already been written.
Different species are generally not cross bred likely because 1) people don't make an attempt, either intentionally or unintentionally, and 2) cross breeding at least some species likely wouldn't result in viable offspring. We generally don't know where it might I think largely because of point 1, though I personally wouldn't choose to cross breed among species anyway.
cj
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