Wild Caught

[PedroANDAshley]

As in Wild caught Chams
Does any one disapprove of this?

 

[warpdrive]

As in Wild caught Chams
Does any one disapprove of this?

Short answer: NO
After all, just how do you think we get captive hatched or captive bread babies?
Do you think they just fall out of the sky?

Harry

 

[PedroANDAshley]

Can't you just breed all ready captive bred male/female?
And make more captive breed males/females?
I know alot of people are going to chew me out for this.
But I think its wrong. :x

 

[Lizardlover]

so what about species that are not available in captivity? How do you think they became CB in the first place? Once upon a time there was no such thing as a CB veiled....

 

[OldSkoolxReasons]

Yes you can but in a sense you are still supporting wild caughts because every captive bred chameleon comes from wild caught lineage. They didn't just appear here in america captive born. In some ways I support it and in others I don't. Once they come into the country I will buy them because I figure they have a better chance with me then with somebody who sees their pretty colors at an importers table during a reptile show and decides to get it for their kid. But the is also helping to add to the demand for wild caught animals. So whatever. I'm up in the air on the subject. However if people only bought CB animals here in america bloodlines would surely cross and genetics would weaken and I'm willing to be there would be major problems eventually, not short term(first few years) but long term(4-5+ years down the road).



Justin

 

[PedroANDAshley]

so what about species that are not available in captivity? How do you think they became CB in the first place? Once upon a time there was no such thing as a CB veiled....

Yea I get it,
But now there are captive breed veileds.
That are more than able to make more cbs.
So why keep buying wild caught?
But old skool does have a point.
Still. I think its cruel to take them from their homes :/
I personally would never buy a wild caught :/

 

[jamncristian]

I dont mind most WC species, but then there are those who
are endangered or threatened because there are such a high demand for them

for me it depends on the species

 

[Chris Anderson]

Very few chameleon species have ever been successfully bred in captivity beyond a few generations. After a few generations, offspring of most species tend to become very weak and fail to thrive or continue to produce. The result is a need to replenish bloodlines with wild caught blood to help strengthen breeding groups. I personally think many species are over exploited in the WC trade and smaller quotas should be implemented. I believe this would make people more likely to try to breed them as their value would increase and those specimens that were imported would be more likely to actually be utilized in breeding efforts. Unfortunately, however, Veiled Chameleons are really the only species that seems to do well in captivity generation after generation.

Chris

 

[lisa h]

As someone who was only able to get my desired species wc, I am now rethinking the whole situation. If a person only wants one as a pet, get something cb. Leave the wc ones for the folks that can successfully breed, and will hopefully one day end the need for wild caught. After mine pass away, I doubt I will have chams again I am in Canada, and chams are more difficult to come by, so my chances of getting cb aren't great. I also like the smaller species, so I don't want a Veiled or a Panther, both of which are in good supply as cb. JMO

 

[draetish]

Since we cannot stop the exportation of these animals by their countries for chump change, I am for it. After all, the way they "do not" manage their environment could be that, in the future their are no wild chams left. I know there are exceptions to this but the damage is done.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I agree with both Chris & Donna. There need to be quotas put on all species of wc chams. Its ridiculous to see wc carpets & other species selling for as little as 40.00 each. Less if you are willing to buy a large group. If quotas were established and also enforced prices would go up and maybe more large scale breeders would be interested in expanding into more species. Its hard for a business/breeder to make any profit on most species being bred short of panthers and high end veiled morphs.

 

[Fidel]

Given the current rate of deforestation in most places chameleons come from, why not? They will probably just get ran over by a backhoe anyways

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Unfortunate but all too true. Maybe if the exporters and the foreign gov's could make more $$ per animal they would set up areas of forest to save more species from extinction and have a farmable product for future generations to enjoy and profit from. Its a sad fact Maddy is being deforested at an alarming rate and so are many other countries that we get our chams from.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I personally think the justification of the deforestation rates possibly meaning that there won't be any habitat left in the wild is a cop-out. While I would never claim that there isn't more that should be done to protect habitat and I definitely feel that many of these governments are not doing enough to protect habitats, that doesn't preclude us from exacerbating an already existing problem and possibly being the tipping point in a situation that might not have turned dire without that additional pressure. The fact of the matter is that the rampant exportation rates of many of these species does have a considerable impact on wild populations and population viability, aside from diminishing habitat availability. It would not be surprising for many species to survive without major problem, despite a limited amount of protect or unprocessed habitat being present, only to have the rampant collection push their populations over the edge. That is why I think quotas need to be lowered on many species.

Chris

 

[Texas Panther Man]

I think it needs to be a combination of the two. Habitat preservation along with quota numbers being enforced. Frankly i think enforcing the quotas is the hardest part of this scenario. Local people are so economically depressed they are worried about surviving now not how it will affect future generations if some species are lost to over collecting or habitat loss.

 

[eisentrauti]

As long as there isn't a economical wonder in most or even all of the chameleon exporting countries there won't be bigger efforts in habitat conservation.
It's very easy for us "first" world inhabitants to judge over people who are wake up every day without knowing how much they will have to eat.

Additionally and what's even worse in my opinion, the big multi national companys sitting in our countries are the biggest thread for the environment in those countries cause they don't give a s#'t about it. Has anyone ever heard what the oil companys have done in the Niger delta ? It's not better than BP caused in the gulf of Mexico, but the people there have no lobby.

To come back to topic: I think people saying WC animals are bad are
a.) extremly hypocritical or
b.) extremly dumb
There are some "hobbyiests" around telling this but they are not better than the guys supporting PETA the masses-pet-killers
Until now only one chameleon has prooved that it could be breed in multi-geneations, Ch.calyptratus and I think some others, F.pardalis, Bradypodion ssp., can follow in the future. But all others need fresh blood from time to time

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I'm actually for two ways of export. First quotas and second special permits. If animals are coming from a small area of habitat (similar to South African Dwarfs), having the government allow every great long while the collecting of 4 to 5 or more pairs specifically for captive breeding (or farm breeding). As well I concur with the others that have stated this before that I think that the export quotas in Madagascar should lowered.

As for wild caught as pets I'm against it (wild caught animals do not make good pets and almost never do as well in captivity as a pet as captive bred animals). I think that the majority of wild caught animals should go to breeders first and that anyone looking for a pet should by captive bred first and think wild caught second. Chris is right though long term breeding has not been as successful as others may think. Panther chameleons that I'm aware of have gone 6 generations in captivity and seem to stop reproducing in captivity after that. Thus it is important for the hobby that some small numbers of wild caught animals are imported to maintain captive blood line/ genetics. However that can only be done long term if these animals habitats are conserved by National Parks, preserves, corridor areas and secondary forests.

 

[eisentrauti]

I don't understand why the quotas eg for Furcifer pardalis should be lowered. They are a synantrophic species which profites from the increasing of towns/villages/plantations in Madagascar.

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

As long as there isn't a economical wonder in most or even all of the chameleon exporting countries there won't be bigger efforts in habitat conservation.
It's very easy for us "first" world inhabitants to judge over people who are wake up every day without knowing how much they will have to eat.

Additionally and what's even worse in my opinion, the big multi national companys sitting in our countries are the biggest thread for the environment in those countries cause they don't give a s#'t about it. Has anyone ever heard what the oil companys have done in the Niger delta ? It's not better than BP caused in the gulf of Mexico, but the people there have no lobby.

To come back to topic: I think people saying WC animals are bad are
a.) extremly hypocritical or
b.) extremly dumb
There are some "hobbyiests" around telling this but they are not better than the guys supporting PETA the masses-pet-killers
Until now only one chameleon has prooved that it could be breed in multi-geneations, Ch.calyptratus and I think some others, F.pardalis, Bradypodion ssp., can follow in the future. But all others need fresh blood from time to time

Benny I'm not saying wild caught animals are bad because they are necessary for long term captive breeding. However, if people are looking for a pet and not going to be working with these wild caught animals to breed them in captivity, they should really consider captive bred animals first.

 

[FFSTRescue]

Quotas, quotas, quotas. People don't need to have the animals they want available at their whim the second they decide they want them. That is just gluttonous. I would rather see the quotas change and have to wait a while for my desired chameleon to be imported than to continue with the way things are going now.