wild veileds in florida
- Thread starter ChamyOscar
- Start date
Justin Carl
Avid Member
Joe, I just bought mine and stuck him in a cage in my backyard.
It really wasn't that hard.
Yes, I did take a sample of his fecal to the vet.
He did have a few parasites, but all of that is behind us now.
All I have to say about my WC is that he is HUGE, beautiful, and his tongue is a mile long!
It really wasn't that hard.
Yes, I did take a sample of his fecal to the vet.
He did have a few parasites, but all of that is behind us now.
All I have to say about my WC is that he is HUGE, beautiful, and his tongue is a mile long!
Cainschams
New Member
Damn Justin. Did you catch him yourself? He is a monster.: I would like to see a pic from a further distance of him on you to get a better preception of his size?
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SoCaliSon
Avid Member
That guy is awesome Justin... I was just saying that if something like this were to be done... Whoever was doing it should, I think, be responsible for ridding the animals of parasites before placing them, and that the whole endevour in itself would not be an easy one. Especially if they are working with WC's specifically.
I have never been to FL and wouldn't have the slightest idea where to go to find these wild Veileds, I imagine they tend to prefer the less inhadbited places. Anyone ever spotted one in FL?
I have never been to FL and wouldn't have the slightest idea where to go to find these wild Veileds, I imagine they tend to prefer the less inhadbited places. Anyone ever spotted one in FL?
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
(warning: this will be long and wander slightly off topic)
Fabian has a point, in general, but Florida is a "special case", unfortunatly. I say so because it's essentially a lost cause, as far as "native flora and fauna" are concerned.
Insects affect biotoc communities far greater than reptiles. Mammals are more damaging than reptiles, as they reproduce faster (usually), and consume much more.
Mammals, however, are not as bad as insects... usually.
Plants... invasive plants are the worst. They will destroy a community, totally. Well, destroy is a bad term - they change it. A few exotic plants (and exotic plants have been introduced to Florida for a very long time) and the native habitat is gone.
It's weird, introduce exotic species on one end (plants, insects) and you cause massive damage, changing things totally. Introduce them on the other end (large herbivores, predators, etc) and you severely damage it. Introduce some stuff in the middle (small reptiles, slow growing trees, etc) and it might not have a noticable effect on the community at all.
It might destroy a species or two, however (nile monitors wiping out burrowing owls, rats killing ground nesting birds, pigs eating every egg in sight, feral cats killing every thing smaller than rabbits...).
Veiled chameleons will have an impact on the small lizards and insects of Florida - most of them probably being invasive themselves. Cuban anoles get no sympathy from me... pushing the geen anoles out...
The fact is, Florida's ecosystems are altered. Some of it due to natural species migration, some accidental species migration, some of it due to intentional release of exotics.
I spent four years in the D.O.T. studying impacts to biotic communities - it's boring work. Invasive plants are the problem. Most species are not threatened by invasive animals (with a few exceptions, of course). Invasive plants are a huge threat to threatened and endangered plants.
With all the damage I've seen done by invasive plants (and animals), I can say the introduction of veiled chameleons into the already "invasive/alien-filled" ecosystems of Florida does not bother me one bit. I can't see how they are going to be a problem, at all. Large snakes, monitors, birds and cats - those will be a problem, if not already.
Ecosystems are always changing, some more quickly than others. We may try to maintain them (and we SHOULD, especially when the change is brought upon by us and threatens the suurvival of species), but there is no way to PRESERVE ecosystems.
Preserving nature is only possible with a jar and formaldehyde.
It's bad to introduce things, as we can't forsee their long-term effects (chaos theory? I'm re-reading Jurassic park at the moment). Cane toads, bunnies, Kudzu... everyone knows of these. But what about Giant cane, japanese grass, tree of heaven, or many other invasive shrubs? They totally displace native plants, which completely displaces the animals that lived off them or around them.
The worst case of all - Japanese chestnut. Talk about absolute devastation. Somebody brings in a few small trees into NYC. A few decades later, the dominant tree of the East is GONE. The loss of the american chestnut did more than change the makeup of the forest. Chestnut provided food for large animals - the wild turkey was severely hurt by the loss of the chestnut. Oaks (which replaced them) do not provide nearly as much food. Chestnuts were extremely important to the lumber industry as well.
All it took was one single contaminated tree. And now, when you're int he blue ridge mountains, you see oaks and pines - nothing like the way it was 80-100 years ago. And that one was on us.
So, while I, personally think that it's cool to have veileds in Florida, and that they're not going to hurt anything, I really hope people read up on how damaging invasive species can be. Yeah, that brown snake in the pacific is bad - really bad - but it's got nothing on the Chestnut blight! If anyone needs to see what short-sighted plans involving non-native species can accomplish, just look it up.
Every time I see an american chestnut, I feel a little sad - they're just stumps and shrubs now - some of which may be over 100 years old, but never grow more than a few feet. See them all over up here - as sad reminder.
I'm getting some blight-resistant American Chestnuts this Fall. They're 97% (or greater) pure american chestnut. Blight resistant. I'm going to be a part in getting them re-introduced. It's good timing, as the oaks, hemlocks an dpines all have their problems... might as well replace them with chestnuts.
Fabian has a point, in general, but Florida is a "special case", unfortunatly. I say so because it's essentially a lost cause, as far as "native flora and fauna" are concerned.
Insects affect biotoc communities far greater than reptiles. Mammals are more damaging than reptiles, as they reproduce faster (usually), and consume much more.
Mammals, however, are not as bad as insects... usually.
Plants... invasive plants are the worst. They will destroy a community, totally. Well, destroy is a bad term - they change it. A few exotic plants (and exotic plants have been introduced to Florida for a very long time) and the native habitat is gone.
It's weird, introduce exotic species on one end (plants, insects) and you cause massive damage, changing things totally. Introduce them on the other end (large herbivores, predators, etc) and you severely damage it. Introduce some stuff in the middle (small reptiles, slow growing trees, etc) and it might not have a noticable effect on the community at all.
It might destroy a species or two, however (nile monitors wiping out burrowing owls, rats killing ground nesting birds, pigs eating every egg in sight, feral cats killing every thing smaller than rabbits...).
Veiled chameleons will have an impact on the small lizards and insects of Florida - most of them probably being invasive themselves. Cuban anoles get no sympathy from me... pushing the geen anoles out...
The fact is, Florida's ecosystems are altered. Some of it due to natural species migration, some accidental species migration, some of it due to intentional release of exotics.
I spent four years in the D.O.T. studying impacts to biotic communities - it's boring work. Invasive plants are the problem. Most species are not threatened by invasive animals (with a few exceptions, of course). Invasive plants are a huge threat to threatened and endangered plants.
With all the damage I've seen done by invasive plants (and animals), I can say the introduction of veiled chameleons into the already "invasive/alien-filled" ecosystems of Florida does not bother me one bit. I can't see how they are going to be a problem, at all. Large snakes, monitors, birds and cats - those will be a problem, if not already.
Ecosystems are always changing, some more quickly than others. We may try to maintain them (and we SHOULD, especially when the change is brought upon by us and threatens the suurvival of species), but there is no way to PRESERVE ecosystems.
Preserving nature is only possible with a jar and formaldehyde.
It's bad to introduce things, as we can't forsee their long-term effects (chaos theory? I'm re-reading Jurassic park at the moment). Cane toads, bunnies, Kudzu... everyone knows of these. But what about Giant cane, japanese grass, tree of heaven, or many other invasive shrubs? They totally displace native plants, which completely displaces the animals that lived off them or around them.
The worst case of all - Japanese chestnut. Talk about absolute devastation. Somebody brings in a few small trees into NYC. A few decades later, the dominant tree of the East is GONE. The loss of the american chestnut did more than change the makeup of the forest. Chestnut provided food for large animals - the wild turkey was severely hurt by the loss of the chestnut. Oaks (which replaced them) do not provide nearly as much food. Chestnuts were extremely important to the lumber industry as well.
All it took was one single contaminated tree. And now, when you're int he blue ridge mountains, you see oaks and pines - nothing like the way it was 80-100 years ago. And that one was on us.
So, while I, personally think that it's cool to have veileds in Florida, and that they're not going to hurt anything, I really hope people read up on how damaging invasive species can be. Yeah, that brown snake in the pacific is bad - really bad - but it's got nothing on the Chestnut blight! If anyone needs to see what short-sighted plans involving non-native species can accomplish, just look it up.
Every time I see an american chestnut, I feel a little sad - they're just stumps and shrubs now - some of which may be over 100 years old, but never grow more than a few feet. See them all over up here - as sad reminder.
I'm getting some blight-resistant American Chestnuts this Fall. They're 97% (or greater) pure american chestnut. Blight resistant. I'm going to be a part in getting them re-introduced. It's good timing, as the oaks, hemlocks an dpines all have their problems... might as well replace them with chestnuts.
ChameleonsTree
New Member
I believe there will always be conflicting scientific opinions on if this new introduction is harmful or helpful. Florida is a state that is being affected by climate change and when climate changes so does anything that lives...plants ...insects etc. So it will be interesting to keep track of their studies of the impact.
Travis2008
New Member
i bought a WC Veiled from a company located in Florida about nine months ago. i recently saw the same company at a reptile show here in new Orleans my dad and i started talking to one of the guys about the veiled. he said that every November they go out and catch many of the veildes and leave just enough for the population to recover for next year.
FOREVER ENDEAVOR
New Member
So Pirate55
Member
if you're honest in advertisement, i can't see the problem with selling wc veileds from florida.
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
Good Luck finding them.
The known locations are on private property and no one who actually knows where they are will give you that information.
-Brad
Ultrakd
New Member
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
Thanks Eric... Very informative post.. I was hoping someone who has done more in depth research on this type of thing would chime in.
A few things I was thinking though... While you may have a point about the ecosystem in Florida being already tainted with non native species... I don't think that the Ecosystem is the only thing we have to worry about. If at any point in the future environmentalists notice even one native species of plant, or insect that is being threatened by the presence of these wild chams... We will then have to start the battle of limitation that they will try to put on our hobby, as far as trade and import.
I will express again how serious I think there presence might be. Look at the reaction to large snakes present in the everglades, A predator that will feed striclty on small mammals and the occasional bird. While Veileds seem like smaller harmless reptiles in comparison... If you really look at it Veileds, reproduce as fast if not faster, and in bigger numbers than snakes, and are a predator that will not only prey on small animals, but Insects, plants, birds, and indiscrimately. Are there any other aboreal predators in Florida that would potentially prey on these Chams?( I ask becuase none come to mind).
No finger pointing intended... and I am not against the sale of WC Chams...but I was afraid that what Travis stated was true... It sounds like breeders may be taking advantage of that climate to allow laborless breeding of Veileds. Works out great for them... Close supply of in demand Chams you are able to pick off the leaves once a year and sell as long as you can leave enough for the next harvest. I would not be suprised that if breeders stopped finding them they would realease more to keep that convenience at hand. I wonder if this is where the wild pops came from in the first place. Talk about short sighted... Risking the health of our ecosystem to make a few quick and easy bucks. We have done it so many times in the past, and everytime it comes back to bite us, yet we never learn our lesson.
I am not sure if I am understanding this statement completely... If you could provide an example that would be wonderful. If you ask me... Taking steps to control the population of any non-native species is the least shortsighted stance to take on the situation. As the outcome effected, whether positive or negative, could only ever be recognized the in long term.
Brad Ramsey
Retired Moderator
If this "whole global warming thing" works out?
-Brad
-Brad
