will different subspecies of jackson chameleons mate?
- Thread starter FlipInOut
- Start date
jojackson
New Member
Why would you want to deliberately mix them? Offspring will not be a new species, or even sub-species. If they are different sub-species/localities and their range does not overlap in the wild (no natural intergrades) then why do it in captivity?
It may be possible, but just because you can, dosent mean you should.
How will you market offspring?
It may be possible, but just because you can, dosent mean you should.
How will you market offspring?
eisentrauti
Avid Member
It's maybe possible between normal jacksonii jacksonii and jacksonii xantholophus - but this is complete bullshit !!!
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Come on, what have we said about putting people down?
It's a question, a simple, factual answer will do the trick. I'm sure the person who asked is doing so because they do not know enogh about the subject matter to understand why it's a bad idea. No reason to get hostile or slightly mean.
Jacksonii subspecies are significantly different. Some are much more rare than others, and are distinct from one another. Mixing them might be possible, but it is not a good thing to do for the following reasons:
One species, xantholophus is common in captivity, the other two are not. It would be detrimental to the hobby to take away from the captive populations of the other subspecies breeding potential.
People who work with the species - especially the smaller two subspecies - are not really working with large numbers of animals. They feel very strongly abou this, and creatign true hybrid animals has the potential to harm the bloodlines of captive animals.
It's a question, a simple, factual answer will do the trick. I'm sure the person who asked is doing so because they do not know enogh about the subject matter to understand why it's a bad idea. No reason to get hostile or slightly mean.
Jacksonii subspecies are significantly different. Some are much more rare than others, and are distinct from one another. Mixing them might be possible, but it is not a good thing to do for the following reasons:
One species, xantholophus is common in captivity, the other two are not. It would be detrimental to the hobby to take away from the captive populations of the other subspecies breeding potential.
People who work with the species - especially the smaller two subspecies - are not really working with large numbers of animals. They feel very strongly abou this, and creatign true hybrid animals has the potential to harm the bloodlines of captive animals.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
You are right, Eric, but I hate those questions about mixing jacksoniis, panther localities, sternfeldi subspecies etc.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I understand. People just do not know. Just remember that the person is asking you about this - if some person wondered if it could/shoudl be done, simply answer the question. Assuming that someone wants to hybridize their jack-jacks with their meru's for fun and profit when they ask a simple question is not a very friendly thing to do.
Flipinoout - this issue is a passionate one for many people. That's why they get all excited when someone mentions crossing subspecies/locales.
Flipinoout - this issue is a passionate one for many people. That's why they get all excited when someone mentions crossing subspecies/locales.
Cainschams
New Member
I see you are from Hawaii. I am betting you have all xanths If you could post some pictures we may be able to help identify them.
If you could post some pictures we may be able to help identify them.
jojackson
New Member
Who put anyone down Eric, did you join the 'JJ your mean' club? I thought I answered the question simply and without bias, ending with a question in context and explainitary of one point of veiw.
Some people will take offense at anything, (they should) let go of mummys apron string and grow up.
Some people will take offense at anything, (they should) let go of mummys apron string and grow up.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
It was more when he said "This is complete bull$hit!!"
But, since you ask... hehe You guys both assumed he was planning on marketing them. You assumed he had motivations, when he was simply asking a question. I am NOT saying you are mean. What I am saying is that when a person asks a question, you should not assume they have any of the knowledge you do when you respond.
For all we know, he could have had an evil plot to destroy the jackjack(I'm liking the nickname) and meru captive breeding program! But going by the question asked, it may be percieved by the original poster that the environment is a hostile one full of zealots.
Now, he's right, it is full of zealots, but it is best to not let them know that right at the start. Let them see why we're zealots, and they shall understand! Scare them away, and the cult... eh hobby, will lose out.
I'm not taking offense to what you said, just saying that questons should not be answered with assumptions all the time. It's often uncomfortable and sometimes off-putting to be asking a question, and get responses that are questions themselves.
At least you guys ANSWERED the question. I remember on one of the other forums, long ago, you ask a "controversial' question, and you'd get attacked.
But, since you ask... hehe You guys both assumed he was planning on marketing them. You assumed he had motivations, when he was simply asking a question. I am NOT saying you are mean. What I am saying is that when a person asks a question, you should not assume they have any of the knowledge you do when you respond.
For all we know, he could have had an evil plot to destroy the jackjack(I'm liking the nickname) and meru captive breeding program! But going by the question asked, it may be percieved by the original poster that the environment is a hostile one full of zealots.
Now, he's right, it is full of zealots, but it is best to not let them know that right at the start. Let them see why we're zealots, and they shall understand! Scare them away, and the cult... eh hobby, will lose out.
I'm not taking offense to what you said, just saying that questons should not be answered with assumptions all the time. It's often uncomfortable and sometimes off-putting to be asking a question, and get responses that are questions themselves.
At least you guys ANSWERED the question. I remember on one of the other forums, long ago, you ask a "controversial' question, and you'd get attacked.
Anilr16
New Member
Eric is soooo right. I remember asking a simple curious question as to breeding red rudis's with regulars and everyone went aPe s**t on me.
just answer peoples question's and then brew an argument once you facts on their real intentions
but yeah. as ive LEARNED. the cross breeding of these different locales, is generally not good. because once one, just one of these hybrid offspring makes it into the business, is purchased or even breeds with a "purebred"/captive bred animal... slowly that specie will start taking new bloodlines. but if your are really so curious to see what hybrid you create. please, in all regards try to keep it away from the pure's so no confusion is brought to our industry,
with all respect, Anilr
just answer peoples question's and then brew an argument once you facts on their real intentions
but yeah. as ive LEARNED. the cross breeding of these different locales, is generally not good. because once one, just one of these hybrid offspring makes it into the business, is purchased or even breeds with a "purebred"/captive bred animal... slowly that specie will start taking new bloodlines. but if your are really so curious to see what hybrid you create. please, in all regards try to keep it away from the pure's so no confusion is brought to our industry,
with all respect, Anilr
eisentrauti
Avid Member
you've got it Anilr !
- those "hybrids" can destroy pure lines
- nobody knows if they are fertile in further generations
- those "hybrids" can destroy pure lines
- nobody knows if they are fertile in further generations
jojackson
New Member
Ok Yes theres a base assumption that since he asks 'can you', that he might have thought about it ? Is this unreasonable?
And given 'he might've thought about it", Yes, theres an assumption he will market them,
afterall, how many people keep all offspring? If he dosent intend to keep them all, (assuming 'he might've thought about it"), how will he dispose of them?
Regardless he sells or gives away (which is more likely?) "how will you market them?"
means, what will you say they are?
This is a simple enough question to ask of somebody who 'might've thought about' cross breeding.
Actually, im sure he would still have no problem in America selling x bred jacksons, but the point of this line of thought is exactly as Eisentrouti points out.
If he sells jacksons x something and somebody breeds that with jacksons, you still have cross breds, but perhaps unknowingly down the line.
Someone comes along and buys one a few generations in, with intent to breed, what are they getting? It may still look like pure jacksons. Would you pay good money for a particular species without being sure it is that species? then you breed and offspring appear with the 'x' traits. Your project is ruined.
And given 'he might've thought about it", Yes, theres an assumption he will market them,
afterall, how many people keep all offspring? If he dosent intend to keep them all, (assuming 'he might've thought about it"), how will he dispose of them?
Regardless he sells or gives away (which is more likely?) "how will you market them?"
means, what will you say they are?
This is a simple enough question to ask of somebody who 'might've thought about' cross breeding.
Actually, im sure he would still have no problem in America selling x bred jacksons, but the point of this line of thought is exactly as Eisentrouti points out.
If he sells jacksons x something and somebody breeds that with jacksons, you still have cross breds, but perhaps unknowingly down the line.
Someone comes along and buys one a few generations in, with intent to breed, what are they getting? It may still look like pure jacksons. Would you pay good money for a particular species without being sure it is that species? then you breed and offspring appear with the 'x' traits. Your project is ruined.
mattjillson
New Member
For pete's sake JJ, the guy only has 2 posts on his account and probably not even 1 animal. Little overboard dude and even if he did say want to cross Jackson's, which I don't think one should, but regardless, it's his call what he wants to do with his animals. Just because you don't think it's a good idea doesn't give you, or anyone, the authority to play cham cop. I think a lot of people forget that we've taken these animals out of their natural environment FOR OUR PLEASURE and not some noble conservation cause. I'm not condoning crossing animals, however, we're not keeping these guys too natural anyways so if someone wants to try those types of projects with animals they paid for, it's their call, not yours.
If you, me or anyone doesn't like what a particular breeder is doing, well, flex your freedom of choice that most democratic countries afford you and don't buy an offspring. If you produce a cross, you call it like it is, a cross between X and Y. It isn't rocket science, the Kammers do it all the time and it doesn't appear that Panthers in captivity are threatened. And if you are worrying about a few generations down the road, don't buy animals from a breeder who keeps or crosses animals. The cham world is very small and the people who work with Jacksons even smaller. There will always be breeders who are local specific and other who aren't. The Chondro world is a good example of this. We're all assuming of course the long, loooooong shot that someone does produce viable offspring, those grow up and produce more offspring or even can, ect, ect. Needless to say, our "naturalist" friends just need to take deep breath and relax a bit.
If you, me or anyone doesn't like what a particular breeder is doing, well, flex your freedom of choice that most democratic countries afford you and don't buy an offspring. If you produce a cross, you call it like it is, a cross between X and Y. It isn't rocket science, the Kammers do it all the time and it doesn't appear that Panthers in captivity are threatened. And if you are worrying about a few generations down the road, don't buy animals from a breeder who keeps or crosses animals. The cham world is very small and the people who work with Jacksons even smaller. There will always be breeders who are local specific and other who aren't. The Chondro world is a good example of this. We're all assuming of course the long, loooooong shot that someone does produce viable offspring, those grow up and produce more offspring or even can, ect, ect. Needless to say, our "naturalist" friends just need to take deep breath and relax a bit.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
Very good arguments ! Who says that he will declare them as crossed animals when he notices that you couldn't sell them ?
Btw : I don't you know who you keep your animals but I try to do this as much natural as possible
Even when we just keep them for pleasure it's our duty to try to breed them that there's no need for more WC animals.
Btw : I don't you know who you keep your animals but I try to do this as much natural as possible
Even when we just keep them for pleasure it's our duty to try to breed them that there's no need for more WC animals.
mattjillson
New Member
You try to keep is as natural as possible but let's be honest, no matter how good we do, it'll never be a substitute for their natural environment. I know people who try to buy native plants for their enclosures to keep it "natural" but still are far off the mark.
Yes, there are plenty of unscrupulous sellers out there but that comes back to the buyer doing their homework. If it is such a big deal to get a pure blooded animal, buy from reputable people who have proven themselves time and again to provide quality and pure blooded animals or buy a WC animal and go from there. It might cost more but peace of mind is a nice thing to have.
I agree with you regarding trying to breed a large enough population to eliminate the need for WC's but again, let's be honest.... $35 WC animal or $150 CB.... a lot if not most people will strongly consider the WC animal before the CB because of the price point. At any rate, like I said before, I don't agree with crossing Chameleons but that doesn't mean that if someone is really interested in it and puts the time and care in to do it, that they're bad guys or should be shunned from the forums because of it. Just my opinion.
Yes, there are plenty of unscrupulous sellers out there but that comes back to the buyer doing their homework. If it is such a big deal to get a pure blooded animal, buy from reputable people who have proven themselves time and again to provide quality and pure blooded animals or buy a WC animal and go from there. It might cost more but peace of mind is a nice thing to have.
I agree with you regarding trying to breed a large enough population to eliminate the need for WC's but again, let's be honest.... $35 WC animal or $150 CB.... a lot if not most people will strongly consider the WC animal before the CB because of the price point. At any rate, like I said before, I don't agree with crossing Chameleons but that doesn't mean that if someone is really interested in it and puts the time and care in to do it, that they're bad guys or should be shunned from the forums because of it. Just my opinion.
Minihuey
Established Member
Mixing species actually creates a sub species that has a high concentration of uranium. This would be a good source of alternative energy. however, the older chameleon forum members will get on you because they are paid by the gas companies to keep people from finding this out!
Fact are facts....
Shame on you Jojackson!
Fact are facts....
Shame on you Jojackson!
mattjillson
New Member
Actually Mini, we're concerned those Chams will fall into the hands of the Iranians....
Eisen, I'll assume something was lost in translation, I would say his reply was an argument versus the debate you and I were having. Difference between the two.
Eisen, I'll assume something was lost in translation, I would say his reply was an argument versus the debate you and I were having. Difference between the two.
Goggles
New Member
JJ entertaining as always! BUT you are STILL a bad man!!
Could this not be how some locales started ie: someone finds a lizard thinks it's "neat" continue touring island till mom says "you can't take that with you let it go" Finds receptive female and new sub species (locale) made. Just a thought.
At any rate it is still human interferance.
Could this not be how some locales started ie: someone finds a lizard thinks it's "neat" continue touring island till mom says "you can't take that with you let it go" Finds receptive female and new sub species (locale) made. Just a thought.
At any rate it is still human interferance.
Minihuey
Established Member
Touche'......
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