Winning cham for October

[royden]

I agree with what you guys are saying but how do you know the judges arent friends with the winner. I am not saying they did I am just putting it out there because both are very beauitful animals.

I am friends with a lot of folks on this site. I happen to be personal friends with Catherine (Pardalisgirl) and felt that I owe her a lot since her animals have been the subject of a lot of my photography.

As a forum member and a judge I'll wear two different hats. The "wow what a cool animal/species/color!" hat. And the "wow what a great, simple, quality photograph!" hat.

I am extremely biased towards Catherine and her shot this month, but it was not the best photograph. It's hard for me to excuse my biases, but I have to if I want this forum to be a great place for this hobby.

 

[Brad]

The contest can always use improvement so I welcome feedback. We have been doing this for over 3 years now and it has evolved over time to meet different challenges. Two of the main changes to the process were the addition of judges and the entry reduction phase. If your interested in some of the initial thinking behind the judges check out this old post: https://www.chameleonforums.com/contest-judging-150/.

The entry reduction phase was added for a few reasons. First, to make the contest more efficient. This allows voters to study each entry more carefully and is easier to maintain. We currently receive 50+ entries for normal contests and expect that number to grow. Second, it improves the entry/voter ratio. The phase also ensures that photo entries meet the rules and standards of the contest. Here is some initial discussion on the concept: https://www.chameleonforums.com/new-contest-phase-1200/.

 

[Chamgirl]

I have been a judge several times on this contest. I am not friends with anyone on here so am not biased towards anyones photo. I must admit I have a huge preference for a photo where you can see the whole of the chameleon, including his/her tail. If the photo with the most votes had pictured all of the chameleon then that would have been a massive improvement, as too in the case of the Parsons one, same thing in my opinion.
I thought the winning photo was clearly the best one and I would have voted it in first place had I been on the voting panel this month.

 

[BocaJan]

I really appreciate all the input. I wasn't out to rock the boat, just understand how the contest is structured. I found the rules and read through all I could find plus the posts and I now understand how things work.

Thanks!

 

[SoCaliSon]

You know I respect all of you guys...and mean no hostility in stating my opininion on the matter.

Here would be my thought. I agree that maybe allowing every single entry into voting may not be ideal. So let the Judges decide which photos would be best for the finals. At that point I think the "points" system should be abolished. Let the voters be the judges...Maybe you will end up with winning shots that some would think not worthy... But let the votes of the people speak for themselves. When I pick a shot to submit...I am looking for one that would appeal to everyones eyes on the site... not just the eyes of a few skilled photographers who are going to grade my picture for the aesthic qualities my college photo professor taught me. It should be what all the people like... Not what the Three people like...even though they are awesome people.

All I am saying is that Eliminating the points, and allowing the the members to decide which pic they like best I think will make it a lot clearer and easier... and to be honest, fair. I would even recommend making it so that the entries owner is anonymous...so reputation plays no factor in the voting as well.

I don't know if anyone else feels this way, but every month after winners have been chosen, I scroll through and see the giant confusing explanation about point assignments adding it up and it never really made any sense (maybe Im not the smartest crayon in the box) But all that confusion just seems unecessary. I am pretty confident if you just let the people vote...The best shots will end up winning...and if they got the vote I think they deserve to win.

I think the shot the Judges chose was very nice... Do I think it was the winning shot? Could have been, but, No simply because it didn't get the votes. People were excited to see a beautiful Utho..and it got the votes. There fore its should be the winner.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I have to disagree. A winning photo should be one that not only has something everyone gets excited about but ALSO is the best from a photo quality standpoint. If there were enough photos entered so that all 10 photos were truly superb photos, then I would agree that the popular vote should decide it. Lets be honest though, most of the photos entered that make the top 10 are not great quality photos. I don't mean that as an insult but only a couple photos a month are actually quality photographs and as a result, a judging process to make sure photo quality is also considered into the win is important. By narrowing the contest down to 10 photos, people who didn't pay attention to the rules are eliminated (2/4 entries for next month's contest that was posted today are in violation) and narrow the field down to reasonable entries in general. Having 3 judges helps make sure that personal bias does not determine the result and the popular vote counts more then a judges vote. I personally think its a very good system.

Chris

 

[Roni013]

I agree judges are needed to weed out all the excess photos to give us a few to choose from, voting on 50+ photos would just be kind of crazy and it wouldnt work well. After that though why not leave it up to the people? Sure it's not how our country works but don't we all wish it did?
Anyhoo, I think leaving it up to the voters would be the best way.
Sure people could cheat the system but I don't think we have many people like that on this forum (could be wrong though I guess). And so what if people only vote for the panther because its thier favorite cham and not because its their favorite picture. Lots of people vote on things for weird reasons, yet we still count thier vote. I just think epecially for those of us who are not pro photographers it might be more fair to have the people decide and not have the picture scrutinized by judges over and over looking for flaws- sometimes the flaws make the picture good

 

[Nicodemayo]

How about we just take a vote for the next few weeks until the submission deadline on whether we have a point system or not.. I think we should have some judges to pick 15 or so pics that meet the criteria but i think we should take a vote to decide what happens after that.

EDIT-Personally im neutral in this situation cause i suck at photography anyway LOL but i think a vote should be taken to settle the issue.

 

[beeze]

How about we just take a vote for the next few weeks until the submission deadline on whether we have a point system or not.. I think we should have some judges to pick 15 or so pics that meet the criteria but i think we should take a vote to decide what happens after that.

EDIT-Personally im neutral in this situation cause i suck at photography anyway LOL but i think a vote should be taken to settle the issue.

I agree that a vote is needed to settle this.

 

[Sang]

IMHO.

there is absolutely no point in holding a poll, cause you will get the popular vote, if the simple fact was simply to get the best photo of photos and simply not just a special shot.

no point in holding a poll to get the popular vote if your going to hold a judging panel.

Not that this really concerns me as of yet. BUT i still think that popular vote would make this months the winner.

someone elses aspects of the "perfect picture" will differ, depending on taste, knowledge and or just over all prefrence.

 

[Chris Anderson]

I just think epecially for those of us who are not pro photographers it might be more fair to have the people decide and not have the picture scrutinized by judges

I'm sure people aren't going to like it but here it goes anyway. My comments are general, not about the particular photos this month or any other month, just in general.

I'm sorry, awards should be given to those that deserve it, not those that feel like the bar should be dropped because they aren't good enough at the task that the award is for. By definition a photo contest is partially about the quality of the photo, not just what is eye grabbing. All photo contests are judged on multiple criteria such as quality, composition, difficulty, etc. This photo contest is no different and the system is very effective in picking the best photos. Brad does a very good job at narrowing the field fairly to the best 10 photos that meet the rules. The members of the forums do a good job picking the three photo that they like the best which are awarded points higher then points from a single judge. The judges do a good job picking the photos they think are of the best quality which are also awarded points. By combining these three systems, the photo contest is very fair and awards the photo that deserves it most based on ALL criteria. Like I said, if there were enough high quality photos to pick 10 that actually were high quality photos, then you could just rely on the popular vote but because there aren't, this system makes sure that the best photo from all criteria wins and that is the way it should be.

Chris

 

[sandrachameleon]

Two categories?

I see why the entries have to be parred down to a reasonable number. And a small panel of judges for that purpose makes sense.

However it is a bit dissapointing that the judges also have such a heavy weighting in selecting the winner, to the point where the popular vote is sometimes almost irrelevant. It makes me less inclined to bother voting.

From reading all the comments here, it appears to me that there are two types of contest desired.
1 - A photography contest, in which the quality of the photo is as important as the subject matter, where the public ooohh aaaah factor is not relevant, and for which there should be a small panel of judges who have knowledge of photography. The goal of this contest would be to select photos of high quality and artistic merit for use in a calendar.

2 - A Popular photo contest, in which the votes of the members matter, period, even if we vote for something because it made us laugh rather than because its a spectacular photographic example. the goal of this contest would be for forum members to have FUN.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Thank you to everyone who voted for my photo this month as there were a few deserving photos. The judging panel does a great job making sure the best photograph wins, not the most popular or the best species. It has been this way for a long time, nothing has changed.

 

[Clifford]

...I agree that maybe allowing every single entry into voting may not be ideal. So let the Judges decide which photos would be best for the finals. At that point I think the "points" system should be abolished. Let the voters be the judges...

That's a good idea. A judging "super delegate" panel selects the top ten photos in the running, and "we the people" choose a winner from that

 

[Clifford]

IFrom reading all the comments here, it appears to me that there are two types of contest desired.

that's not a bad idea either

 

[Chuck G]

I agree with Joe and a few other people that the entries should be narrowed down to the 10 or so by the judging panel and let the forum members decide after that. I don't think the forum members are given enough credit in deciding the outcome and to leave personal biases out. The naked eye knows what looks good without any photography background. This is a chameleon forum and not a photography forum. All the winners I have noticed lately were very deserving winners and probably would have won or placed anyway, if left up to the members.

 

[Cameron B]

I think the shot the Judges chose was very nice... Do I think it was the winning shot? Could have been, but, No simply because it didn't get the votes. People were excited to see a beautiful Utho..and it got the votes. There fore its should be the winner.

This is exactly why we have the judges in place. It's a photo contest, not a popularity contest. People are essentially winning money here, and just because people are "excited" to see a species in a photo doesn't mean that the photo should indeed win. It's the overall composition that matters. Don't get me wrong, I think the Utho was a nice shot. Everyone tries their hardest here, and that's part of the fun.

I'm sure people aren't going to like it but here it goes anyway. My comments are general, not about the particular photos this month or any other month, just in general.

I'm sorry, awards should be given to those that deserve it, not those that feel like the bar should be dropped because they aren't good enough at the task that the award is for. By definition a photo contest is partially about the quality of the photo, not just what is eye grabbing. All photo contests are judged on multiple criteria such as quality, composition, difficulty, etc. This photo contest is no different and the system is very effective in picking the best photos. Brad does a very good job at narrowing the field fairly to the best 10 photos that meet the rules. The members of the forums do a good job picking the three photo that they like the best which are awarded points higher then points from a single judge. The judges do a good job picking the photos they think are of the best quality which are also awarded points. By combining these three systems, the photo contest is very fair and awards the photo that deserves it most based on ALL criteria. Like I said, if there were enough high quality photos to pick 10 that actually were high quality photos, then you could just rely on the popular vote but because there aren't, this system makes sure that the best photo from all criteria wins and that is the way it should be.

Chris

I agree with Chris on this one. A judging panel is in place, and is warranted. If you take a look at the judges decisions, they are not always such a big factor. Some of the least voted on photos got the better of the judges vote. This added "feature" seems to balance out the system, and is something you'll see in almost every type of photo contest.

 

[SoCaliSon]

I cant really say I disagree with anyone here. It is a photocontest... Not a popularity contest... So let the people decide which photo they like best in the vote. So the question here comes up.

What makes a good photo?

A photograph is an artistic expression and "what makes a good photo" can be differ between tastes, we all have different taste, just as the judges may have different tastes amongst themselves. Just because Chris Anderson, or maybe some judges may think that a photo doesn't deserve to be there, there may be a mass majority of members who find the image to be a winner. If that photo receives the winning amount votes, then it should win... Nobody should have more of a sway over the votes just because they took photo classes in college. This is not a running for the Cover of Nat Geo. This should be an open voting on which photo is most liked by the entire community.

One person can love the photo for the same reason someone else hates it. Whether it be the composition, the background, the action, or the species that makes you like the shot end up voting for it, you are voting on the work of art as a whole. Doesn't matter if only the head was showing... If it is eye catching enough to win the votes... Then it deserves the prize.

For Instance:
An amature who wants to participate in the contest snaps a shot on their P&S, and their is something unique and eye catching about the shot, but maybe the lighting was not quite not up to par of what the pros are doing. It makes the finals, and because of the unique allure of the shot, wins most of the popular vote. With the current process those few chosen judges can take that win from the owner, just because the lighting is not up to the standards they would use in their own shots. I think that is wrong. This is art and nobody can tell you that you are painting your painting wrong. Lighting a little off or not, If enough people thought that was winning shot, then it should win.

IMO After the judges have removed any that don't fit criteria, or just didn't quite make the cut for some other reason...
Everyones vote should be equal.

 

[Rocky]

I dont really believe that anyone should be complaining about the parameters on the contest. The contest does not have to be held and there are rules to every competition.

People saying that its not right that people win due to them being "professionals" doesn't really make a lot of sense because there will always be something that you cannot do as well as someone else and noone is going to pick you over the better person because its not "fair" that they can do something better than you.

I think everyone should just deal with the rules because they probably aren't going to change and the contest doesnt have to be held. If it were for just bragging rights I could kinda understand you wanting to change the rules, but he's giving 50 dollars to the winner so i think he can do whatever he wants.

 

[snookey266]

Congrats Vibrant Cham on your win! Lovely photo!

Question for all members - How do you view the voting results?