worrisome Fauna BOI

[DeremensisBlue]

I have a question concerning his practice, and please excuse me if this is a simple or idiotic question BUT:
This company has outdoor cages designed to let native insects in the cage for feeding, which in his words allows any cage hatched babies escape. Off the native/non-native population issue for a moment...
Wouldn't you be concerned with parasite infestations in your animals? You have no way to know what insects your guys are eating and would be a little reactive rather than proactive as to the knowledge of who is eating well and who is not which is one of the first signs of a distressed animal, isn't it?

And, yes, the more space and the more foliage you include the less you can monitor how each baby is doing. You will be introducing compromises in every group rearing situation. The only way to truly be on top of each and every baby's health is to raise them individually. There are a couple of breeders that are doing this. They are able to monitor each baby's food intake and hydration (via the consistency of the poop). It takes a lot of work, but it does pay off in the quality department. Check out the Panther Baron, a sponsor on this forum, for a breeder who does just that.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Keeping chameleons outside as has been done in the facility in question does increase the risk of getting parasites. Wild caught insects and even native lizard poop on the outside/inside of the enclosure are all possibilities for transporting parasites. But, the nutrition and variety those wild insects offer and the health from the natural sunlight give way more benefit than a light parasite load could take away. Chameleons have the advantage of being arboreal so the poop born parasites are generally far gone. In a large 6’+ outdoor enclosure you will not have much constant re-infestation of direct lifecycle parasites. Although it is best to be parasite free, chameleons can handle light loads of parasites just fine. The benefits of outdoor keeping with regards to health are significant.

We generally have a high priority on wiping out all parasites because when we keep them in relatively small cages (even a 4' tall cage) their food items have access to the poop and parasites can rapidly shoot to unnatural levels. Thus our vigilance for indoor keeping must be much higher than in outdoor keeping. (btw, this assumes that "outdoor keeping" is with a much larger cage area, not just moving your indoor cage outdoors.)

Bill

Bill is entirely correct. AS keepers we tend to focus on wiping out ll parasites if only since we keep the animals in smaller cages indoors. Gotta break that cycle.

Outdoors these animals in the wild always have a parasite load, it's nature. we forget that sometimes.

Back to the topic, this topic is getting a lot of attention with the FL agencies and some lawmakers. Apparently the BOI thread is getting around.

 

[deerharvester]

This is worrisome, and its going to end up being another black eye for the entire reptile community. Ive delt with jim several times and seams to be a professional person, but the proof is in the pudding. And, as for the parasite topic, it is probably all is good while they are unstressed. But, once shipping and the rigors of a new environment, the numbers explode. Which I have personally delt with. I would like to hear what jim has to say though.

Scott

 

[zlew]

I was involved in this argument. He admitted to knowingly allowing 25% or more of his chameleon hatchlings to escape. I'm not sure how many chameleons he was breeding per year but I believe it was one of the most in the country, possibly in the thousands. The winters get cold down there, and so he figured the hatchlings would freeze to death, until he started finding adults on his property (years ago) and continued to allow them to escape, knowing full well that they were capable of surviving over winter. He has even admitted to finding gravid wild females and selling the offspring wholesale as pedigree. At this point, he is either purposefully experimenting with the chams to try and create his own " Florida Locale " (which was why the whole thread was started--wild chams he had been finding) that he could then sell, OR he is negligent and cruel, allowing the baby chams to escape and possibly freeze to death, face predators, etc. in an environment where they are non native and potentially invasive. He is probably both. The man himself is quite a jerk. He talks down to you (somehow manages to do it over messaging), says the same thing over and over in different ways, throws around veiled insults, and is generally arrogant and insufferable. <----(this point requires redundancy)

 

[Rango3d]

My biggest concern now with this thread is that some kid reads this, knows the area and now wants to catch 1. The fear that he doesn't get shot or worse killed.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I'm a lax environmental steward. I love nature, animals and plants. I hate pollution, impervious surfaces, poison dirt and cities. But I'm not worried about most invasives.

The most dangerous invasive species are plants and insects. These completely alter the environment from the ground up. Mammals tend to be the next worst, as they do more, more quickly(rats cats and pigs. It's always rats cats and pigs).

Few reptiles have the capacity to really muck things up - big ones are a no-brainer. Things that can wipe out or threaten already threatened species are another problem(gopher tortoises and owls being harmed by invasive monitors and tegus, for example). That godforsaken brown snake in the pacific...cane toads too.

I personally don't mind the idea of invasive "neat" species - phelsuma, chameleons, dart frogs, etc. Especially in Florida, where the habitat is more or less favorable - if not ideal - for every herp on earth. What WON'T survive there? I think it's cool that there are populations of chameleons in the US.

Nature adapts, changes, and we are like the earth's enzyme - we facilitate and accelerate the natural processes, for good, bad and sometimes catastrophic. Our actions can often supersede natural selection.

If I lived in Florida, I would be tempted to see if melleri can cut it. I'd love to see day geckos all over the place - screw the Cuban brown anoles! Thankfully, I don't live in Florida!

Things like this happen anywhere someone breeds reptiles outdoors in a setting like this. It's almost impossible to contain them.

I believe this happened in California as well, from another large breeder's escapees.

But...

I'm really surprised at how unconcerned they are. While many people share my OPINION on the matter regarding invasives, none can deny the facts: it's not legal. It WILL bring unwanted attention. Avoiding Imperial involvement when it comes to this hobby is a good thing. With what was posted, how could the USFWS not get involved?

Is this going to lead to permits? The federal government does not hesitate to justify its existence. We, as hobbyists/breeders/etc should not give them reason to mess with us any further.

Show the public a picture of a snake swallowing an alligator - they'll agree to ban/limit ALL reptiles and exotics. Most people in the public do not "get it", as we are not taking dogs and cats here. It's easy for the ignorant masses to be indifferent to our hobby. Anything like this could be portrayed as a reason to ban them.

So, at the very least, don't ADVERTIZE that you're responsible for establishing an invasive species!

(sorry, had a lot of coffee)

 

[alphakenc]

If all of this continue to happen, soon or later, governments will start mandatory putting a chip on every single reptile soon as already happen to the mammals....Yup....yup.

 

[Carlton]

I'm a lax environmental steward. I love nature, animals and plants. I hate pollution, impervious surfaces, poison dirt and cities. But I'm not worried about most invasives.

I personally don't mind the idea of invasive "neat" species - phelsuma, chameleons, dart frogs, etc. Especially in Florida, where the habitat is more or less favorable - if not ideal - for every herp on earth. What WON'T survive there? I think it's cool that there are populations of chameleons in the US.

Nature adapts, changes, and we are like the earth's enzyme - we facilitate and accelerate the natural processes, for good, bad and sometimes catastrophic. Our actions can often supersede natural selection.

I'm really surprised at how unconcerned they are. While many people share my OPINION on the matter regarding invasives, none can deny the facts: it's not legal. It WILL bring unwanted attention. Avoiding Imperial involvement when it comes to this hobby is a good thing. With what was posted, how could the USFWS not get involved?

One important thing to consider about invasives...you can't predict how harmless or harmful they will be. You are introducing something that didn't evolve as part of its new habitat, and it doesn't come alone. It brings in diseases, parasites, alien gut micro fauna and flora, a GI tract full of alien plant seeds, and may end up with an appetite for some rarer native animal or plant. The native species haven't been exposed to all this alien stuff and wham...you end up with a threat that no one could predict. Native species can't always adjust quickly enough to the new situation. There are so many native species with high value being damaged.

A prime example of this is the spread of chytrid fungus in amphibians. The natural host for this fungus was the African clawed frog exported by the millions for human pregnancy testing. Labs routinely dumped the remains of dead frogs down the drain and their fungal hitch hiker spread through water systems all over the planet. Chytrid is known to have wiped out native frogs and salamanders worldwide as they had no resistance to it. How many hundreds of species did we lose because we were careless and clueless?

And, guess what...once the situation becomes serious your tax dollars end up being spent trying to close the barn door after the horse bolted. I don't know the figures, but millions end up being spent to control invasive species in most states.

Sure we can argue that introduced chameleons may not become a pest, but no one can guarantee that! And we can't predict what valuable organism ends up being lost because of them. Wasn't it Aldo Leopold who said "the first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts!"

The attitude that leads someone to bring in a new species just because they like the idea is selfish and arrogant. I'm sure most of you know why the US has starlings and English sparrows? Because some idiot felt that we should have all the birds mentioned in Shakespeare's plays. Someone had the bright idea to introduce nutria to create a new marketable fur. Well, no one ended up wanting the fur, so we have nutria damaging rivers, canals, dams, etc. all over the south. Cheat grass blankets the western US because someone wanted a grass that greened up a little earlier in spring for livestock. The danged stuff outcompetes native grasses, has less nutritional value for the same livestock, dies off early, and supports massive wildfire. Purple loosestrife and water hyacinth take over critical waterways and wetlands all because someone wanted pretty flowers in their garden. On and on and on.

Maybe I see it a bit more black and white, but then I've spent my whole professional career fixing, managing, or trying to prevent the problems humans create for their planet.

 

[alphakenc]

My fellow Chameleon lovers, ask not what your chameleons can do for you, ask what you can do for your chameleons!!!!
We need to be more responsible for our actions , if you love chameleons enough, then do the right thing for them, enough said.......Yup....yup.

 

[nick barta]

I'm a lax environmental steward. I love nature, animals and plants. I hate pollution, impervious surfaces, poison dirt and cities. But I'm not worried about most invasives.

I personally don't mind the idea of invasive "neat" species - phelsuma, chameleons, dart frogs, etc. Especially in Florida, where the habitat is more or less favorable - if not ideal - for every herp on earth. What WON'T survive there? I think it's cool that there are populations of chameleons in the US.

Nature adapts, changes, and we are like the earth's enzyme - we facilitate and accelerate the natural processes, for good, bad and sometimes catastrophic. Our actions can often supersede natural selection.

I'm really surprised at how unconcerned they are. While many people share my OPINION on the matter regarding invasives, none can deny the facts: it's not legal. It WILL bring unwanted attention. Avoiding Imperial involvement when it comes to this hobby is a good thing. With what was posted, how could the USFWS not get involved?

One important thing to consider about invasives...you can't predict how harmless or harmful they will be. You are introducing something that didn't evolve as part of its new habitat, and it doesn't come alone. It brings in diseases, parasites, alien gut micro fauna and flora, a GI tract full of alien plant seeds, and may end up with an appetite for some rarer native animal or plant. The native species haven't been exposed to all this alien stuff and wham...you end up with a threat that no one could predict. Native species can't always adjust quickly enough to the new situation. There are so many native species with high value being damaged.

A prime example of this is the spread of chytrid fungus in amphibians. The natural host for this fungus was the African clawed frog exported by the millions for human pregnancy testing. Labs routinely dumped the remains of dead frogs down the drain and their fungal hitch hiker spread through water systems all over the planet. Chytrid is known to have wiped out native frogs and salamanders worldwide as they had no resistance to it. How many hundreds of species did we lose because we were careless and clueless?

And, guess what...once the situation becomes serious your tax dollars end up being spent trying to close the barn door after the horse bolted. I don't know the figures, but millions end up being spent to control invasive species in most states.

Sure we can argue that introduced chameleons may not become a pest, but no one can guarantee that! And we can't predict what valuable organism ends up being lost because of them. Wasn't it Aldo Leopold who said "the first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts!"

The attitude that leads someone to bring in a new species just because they like the idea is selfish and arrogant. I'm sure most of you know why the US has starlings and English sparrows? Because some idiot felt that we should have all the birds mentioned in Shakespeare's plays. Someone had the bright idea to introduce nutria to create a new marketable fur. Well, no one ended up wanting the fur, so we have nutria damaging rivers, canals, dams, etc. all over the south. Cheat grass blankets the western US because someone wanted a grass that greened up a little earlier in spring for livestock. The danged stuff outcompetes native grasses, has less nutritional value for the same livestock, dies off early, and supports massive wildfire. Purple loosestrife and water hyacinth take over critical waterways and wetlands all because someone wanted pretty flowers in their garden. On and on and on.

Maybe I see it a bit more black and white, but then I've spent my whole professional career fixing, managing, or trying to prevent the problems humans create for their planet.

Me thinks Carlton is a pretty smart guy…..

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[jannb]

Me thinks Carlton is a pretty smart guy…..

CHEERS!

Nick

Carlton is a very smart "girl".

 

[alphakenc]

There are two people that I admire their passion and intelligence in this forums, First one is BRUCE GALBRAITH from CHAMELEON PARADISE , he is a AWESOME BREEDER VERY knowledgeable and caring for all his chameleons, then We have CARLTON ...always here to answer your question, they are behind-the-scenes, and THE BEST of THE BEST you can ever learn from....Yup...yup.

 

[junglefries]

For my outside cages, I use two. I place a 36" cage inside of an empty 48" cage. This offers me a little more protection from escapees or intruders. I also, use steel 1/4" spaced fence mesh around some or the larger cages for added protection. I lose a little Vit D thru so much mesh, but you can never be too safe or cautious.

 

[carol5208]

Carlton is a very smart "girl".

I just found out recently that he was a she!

 

[nick barta]

Carlton is a very smart "girl".

Only a guy would be stupid enough to not know that!

CHEERS!

Nick

 

[Eric Adrignola]

That is so funny. I've known Carlton online for years and had no idea... Should have checked her profile! Stupid internet.

That said, don't get me wrong. I say I'm a lax environmental steward because I admit that it's kinda neat to know they're established in the wild here. I know it's not a good thing overall, but I'm being honest about my feelings on the issue vs the facts.

Carlton has a good point about the difficult-if-not-impossible effects of invasive species introduction. Chestnut blight. Perhaps the mother of all invasive species introduction disasters. A few Asian trees are bright into the US... decades later, the chestnut forests of the United States are gone. They used to cover the Eastern US!

 

[junglefries]

Only a guy would be stupid enough to not know that!

CHEERS!

Nick

Spoken like a married man.

 

[Carlton]

That is so funny. I've known Carlton online for years and had no idea... Should have checked her profile! Stupid internet.

It's so much fun being mysterious!

That said, don't get me wrong. I say I'm a lax environmental steward because I admit that it's kinda neat to know they're established in the wild here. I know it's not a good thing overall, but I'm being honest about my feelings on the issue vs the facts.

I'm sure many of us feel the same to some degree. Sometimes I wish we could all have private islands where we could introduce our favorite creatures and enjoy them in a wild state without the consequences.

Carlton has a good point about the difficult-if-not-impossible effects of invasive species introduction. Chestnut blight. Perhaps the mother of all invasive species introduction disasters. A few Asian trees are bright into the US... decades later, the chestnut forests of the United States are gone. They used to cover the Eastern US!

Unfortunately my line of work shows me the reality of invasive species all the time, so I end up feeling more strongly about it.

 

[leedragon]

the only thing that bugs me is when people try to excuse the invasive species, they do harm the already established ecosystem, chameleons too, they should be clean out of the wild, you have examples of monitor lizards, pythons iguanas and what not killing off species that have no natural defence to them.

yeah chameleons are cool but keep then in their terrarium, if you want to see you in the wild save some money and take a trip to africa, everybody wins that way

 

[johnnyev]

Hawaii really needs to do something about their cat problem. That is taking a HUGE toll. I know they are cute and the extermination of thousands of cats isn't something most people are excited about, but they are out of hand on most of the major islands.

Would excite me! Bloody hate cats.
Wish someone would exterminate them all where i live. One animal i can't understand why they are so popular.