Xanthos from Kenya??

[james L]

Well going through the Kingsnake.com Cham ads I found this post for Jacksons Chams for sale. Well not just any jacksons, jacksonii xantholophus.
What I found so interesting about these particular Xanthos was there from Kenya! Now Ive seen chams being sold from Kenya before, even though I dont think Kenya allows exportation of chams. Or at least they use to be against it. I think? Wasnt it ban in the early 80's? Also when was the last time Xanthos were brought into the US legally from Kenya? Do we really need more Xanthos on the market? And do we really need ones that were ripped out of native range even though theres populations of them in HI, FL, and CA? And you can buy them retail for as low as $30! I know this is sort of a rant and Im sorry for that. Im an intense dude who is concerned for our 3 horned friends. Anybody with some Kenya info out there?? Heres the link. Thanks!

 

[pssh]

They are from tikitiki... I imagine they are treated with the best care possible.

 

[james L]

That wasnt my concern............

 

[pssh]

I meant if they imported the animals themselves. I doubt they would use an importer that is less than one of the best. Anywho, what does it matter if they come from Kenya vs FL? Both are "ripped" out of the wild anyways.

Edit: Oh wait. I think they are farmed in Kenya. Whoops.

 

[james L]

Hmmm I forgot chams were native to the US. How silly of me! And I didnt say "wild" I said native range. Im not against animals being removed from places they dont belong. Oh ya define "farmed for me please.

 

[jdog1027]

From what I've read in article ( I can't remember the author/publication etc.), the gene pool of the xanthlophus from Hawaii has become very 'stagnant'. The population of them there were started from a very small group of animals and there has not really been an introduction of fresh genes into that group of animals in nearly 35-40 years. The article went on to describe some possible health problems associated with continued imbreeding that seem to be plaguing this species in the 'pet trade'. I am very concerned about 'ripping ' animals from their natural range indescriminately as well, but I think if it is a limited number that are going to wind up into the cages of dedicated breeders, this could be beneificial. Continued over collection for a quick profit to inexperienced impulse buyers is bad.

 

[GoFSU]

Hmmm I forgot chams were native to the US. How silly of me! And I didnt say "wild" I said native range. Im not against animals being removed from places they dont belong. Oh ya define "farmed for me please.

I believe he means this. Bread to be sold or introduced into the wild or for other reasons that I don't know. Just like your local breeder or any of the pages that sell chameleons on the web.

 

[pssh]

When I say farmed, I mean animals that are bred to create F1 offspring that can be legally exported outside of the country. Basically, it means no wild animals are removed from the country.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Hmmmm I would assume that you are the person that sent me an email via kingsnake with an incorrect return email telling me that I need to take my posting down.

They are not kenyans they are hawiian two totally different species I suggest you edit you add.

So here is my original response:
No, they are not... I suggest you know what you are talking about before making before making presumptuous emails. The chameleons (C. Jacksonii Xantholophus) in Hawaii were established in the 70’s from wild caught Xantholophus that came from… Guess where? Kenya… People released the chameleons and thus they became invasive. The Xantholophus that I am selling, even though they are invasive to Hawaii are not from Hawaii, they are from Kenya. Kenya also has 2 other different types of jacksons that I have kept and do keep/work with, the C. Jacksonii Merumontanus and C. Jacksonii Jacksonii. So unless you think the animals in my posting are one of these two then again, you are wrong. My ad will not be changed, however, thank you for your concern.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Now in regards to this posting you have a lot of “I thinks” which really boil down into nothing, if you doing like my chameleons or the price on them then you don’t need to buy them, simple as that.

I was speaking with Kent and others about the last time a ‘real’ full Kenya shipment came in and the consensus seems to be that it has been at least 10ish years.

Yes they are the same chameleons as the ones in HI however mine are not related to anything from that island or other “farms”. I have sold LOTS of jacksons chameleons that come from non-native populations and I can easily say that these KENYAN’s are larger and more colorful and they have grips like a robot.

As for the price I don’t mind making public that I got these for much more than $30 each, which is why they are more expensive. Sure you can buy a Jackson for $30, but look where you get it from… If you or anybody else are the kind of people that buy for price alone then anything I have is not for you. I purchased several of these for some friends of mine that breed jacksons and wanted new blood in their groups and to offer to the public who may want the same. I find that having a high price keeps my animals out of the hands of impulse purchases and parents wanting a pet for 10 year old Timmy. Having a high price allows my animals to go to people who realize what they are and what can be done with them. If I did not care I could sell my animals for peanuts too; but I do so I don’t.

 

[laurie]

Hey Chad I was happy to see that a few Jacksons actually came in from Kenya. Thanks for posting pictures they are awesome.

 

[james L]

Hmmm sorry there Chad that wasnt me. This thread is my rant.
Also im completely aware that the Xanths in HI, FL, CA originate from Kenya.
Also hows Mako?

 

[fluxlizard]

Just went to tiki tiki reptiles site to see the difference between those xanths and those I have kept (from hawaii).

Looking at the horns I just want to say "WOW" the horns on the one in the pic are incredible compared to those I have had.

Is that the "normal" for this shipment, or is the guy in the photos an exceptional individual?

Just wondering if the hawaiians have degenerated some in that department.

 

[Texas Panther Man]

Those are some nice looking xanths man.

You know its one thing to express ones opinions on a thread posted in an open forum. What I cant stand is when I see people posting negative comments on peoples for sale ads. Which Ive seen fairly often on Fauna lately. If you dont agree with the seller or his pricing on an animal simply click away from the ad and go elsewhere.

 

[yokman]

For the quality I see I just wish I had a few extra hundred dollars to buy em up!!! 100 bucks for a GOOD cham around here is a good deal.

 

[james L]

I never said anything negative about the business or there ad. This thread is about a little more then not agreeing with an animal for sale or its price. Price is really my last concern. I didnt even notice tiki's price until Chad said something. Im glad he is selling them at a high price. And I agree with adding new fresh blood into the mix but Im interested in the how chams from Kenya are being exported when I have always read that Kenya doesnt allow it. Also I really dont see a need to import Kenyan Xanths. There isnt that many mutations yet in the HI. Cant we just be happy with what we have???

 

[Texas Panther Man]

From everything Ive read this isnt a threatened species of chameleon. And you yourself stated you havent seen them imported before. Therefore they arent being collected in large numbers for the pet trade. Personally I have no qualms with limited numbers being exported to people who will use them to expand the domestic gene pool. I havent looked at this years cites quotas. If your really that intterested in finding out, I'd start there. Because they do allow limited numbers of certain species out every year.

 

[james L]

Yes BUT are chams allowed to be exported from Kenya?

 

[pssh]

Farmed ones are!

 

[Lloyd Heilbrunn]

Some interesting links:

http://www.africanconservation.org/...nya-new-law-to-allow-killing-of-wildlife.html

http://www.kws.org/export/sites/kws/info/regulations/downloads/capture_export_form.PDF


"11. Wildlife species for which game farming may be allowed*
Animals: Crocodile, Tortoise, Chameleon, Reptiles (other than snakes), Snails, Frog, Lizards, Butterfly, Snake (for display and venom extraction, export of live for breeding), Ostrich, Pigeon (Except those listed in), Doves (except those listed in Schedule 5 of the Wildlife Act, Ducks, Helmeted Guineafowl, Vulturine Guineafowl, Quail.
Plants: Aloe, Red stinkwood Prunus Africana, East african sandalwood Osyris lanceolata, White’s ginger (mkombera)Mondia whytei, Camphor basil Ocimum kilimanscharicum.



* Game farming require special permits from Kenya Wildlife Service"

See:

http://www.kws.org/research/priority_ecosystems.html