Yemen Chameleons
- Thread starter AliceC
- Start date
She died at 18 months as this was the age she was when i got her, the reason i took them on was because they weren't being cared for correctly and she had a VERY severe case of MBD, there was nothing anyone could do for her. I have now had them for a few years and did only recently think about separating them as i wanted to slow down her production of eggs, being with him was making her produce more clutches a year than i would like, so i took her out and put her in her own new set up, again the male stopped eating and became very in active so i put him back in with her, (i did it this way just in case he did decide to become territorial) and again he is much happier now they are housed together again, he is eating again, a lot brighter and a lot more active. Like a said before there are always exceptions, just because one is aggressive and territorial does not automatically mean to say that another one is. Take humans for example, you could have 2 people that are so alike in every way but then you find out that ones a murderer or a rapist, would you then automatically presume the other one is too? Because that's what you're saying, that they're all the same.
dodolah
Retired Moderator
I am not even sure if the analogy fit.. you just cannot equate a veiled chameleon to a human. They are just two different things. It is like comparing a banana with a Playstation 3.
Veiled chameleon is indeed a dominant creature in general. and, interestingly I found your post actually answer one of the reason why we recommend to put one chameleon per cage. In case of a pair chameleon, it is much too stressful for a female chameleon to be mated over and over again.
I would not deny the fact that putting multiple chameleons in a cage can be done.. But, I would never recommend beginners to attempt such things. It is too complicated to do for people who still in the learning curve for chameleon's basic care.
Here is a better analogy, imho:
it is absolutely possible to raise a chameleon without a uvb light and rely only on vitamin D3 supplementing and gutloading (indeed I know someone who have done so).. But, I would NEVER ever tell people to do it due to the complexity of the dosage and the dietary requirement needed.
I guess in the end, it boils down to these specific question..
Why the necessity to house them together? Is there actually a benefit in it? Is it because of a space problem? Financial problem? or is it because a personal satisfaction?
It is normal for people to question why you do certain things, when the things you do defy their common sense/ the usual norm.
By all means, challenging the norm can be beneficial and indeed can further our chameleon husbandry knowledge.. But, be prepare to defend your position with proper documentations and evidences, before you disregard the recommended practice. I have not read Chris Anderson post about the benefit of caging a male veiled with a female mentioned in the previous posts.. But, I know that Chris is a very knowledgeable keeper in this field, so.. if he ever post something like this, I bet he will have proper evidence, data, anecdote, and documentation to support his points. In fact, I would love to read it if anyone can give me the link.
In the end, I think everyone from both sides should respect each other and be a grown up about it. Differences can rise as long as we do not put our chameleon's life in jeopardy just to prove our points.
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Pssh & Lizardlover,
There were a lot of caveats that went along with what I said that are not included in your summary. To quote the exchange you guys are talking about:
In the absence of considerable experience, cohabitation outside breeding should not be attempted as the keeper lacks the experience to properly examine the stress and condition of both animals for subtle indicators of problems which can shorten the lifespan of the animals.
Chris
There were a lot of caveats that went along with what I said that are not included in your summary. To quote the exchange you guys are talking about:
In the absence of considerable experience, cohabitation outside breeding should not be attempted as the keeper lacks the experience to properly examine the stress and condition of both animals for subtle indicators of problems which can shorten the lifespan of the animals.
Chris
Rosie42892
New Member
In Chameleons, especially your specific type, you should never have the opportunity to find out if they are an "exception" to the rule to keep them separate. It is widely know that this shortens the lifespan of your chameleon, makes their lives less enjoyable, and will end in a bad way. In all seriousness, it is not IF you see an issue between them, its WHEN you will see it. Wouldn't you rather make their lives more enjoyable? Whoever had their chams housed together was causing their animals unneccesary stress as well, you should really do some more research, we really aren't lieing or telling you our opinions, it is the nature of chams.
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
OK, one more time....none of our very experienced members are saying that chams can NEVER be kept together, that you should NEVER handle a cham, or that ALL males are aggressive. What they ARE (or should be) are saying is, it depends on many factors including keeper experience
Why do people assume that chams are not stressing because their color is nice and bright? Because all those pretty internet photos show colors? You can bet that many of those animals are also showing signs of bluffing or aggression (puffed out gulars, flattened bodies, curled tails, raised front feet, etc). Bright color is a sign of moderate stress. Activity is a sign of mild stress. It is a continuum, not an absolute. People who have lived around many chams know this. Why the heck do you think so many different animals display brilliant crests, skin patches, contrasting hair or feathers, etc? To warn, to advertise, to fight, to attract. A very content relaxed chameleon tends to be duller colored and sedately perched. No stress at all is death. Some stress is caused simply by being alive and reactive to the world around you. The problem is determining when enough is enough, when the level of stress is so constant the animal can't escape it (such as being confined to a tiny space) and starts to tire. The immune system gets compromised. Why do humans get colds? A little bacteria, a parasite, a low level heath issue gets the upper hand and wham, the cham ends up sick. By now you are dealing with a long term effect of stress that took days, weeks, months to build. This tipping point is going to vary by each individual animal. I don't really care if the female arrived with MBD or not.
The first rule of thumb for a compromised animal is to give it space, privacy, security, and help it conserve its energy to heal itself. This means no competition for the best perch, the best temperature spots, the best chance to drink and eat, and to rest. If someone does not provide this they are being thoughtless.
To lay primate or mammalian social need assumptions onto a solitary reptile is unfair. They are completely different in their social bonds and needs! I have a very hard time accepting that a male chameleon would "miss" a female. Chams don't form pair bonds, do not defend territories together, do not share protection or nuturing the eggs or young. If they did these things I could accept that one might mourn a missing mate. The fact is, they do not form cooperations in their natural lives. Not a bad thing or a good thing, just a different strategy that works for them. I have no doubt that the reason this male cham seemed to mourn the female was because it was also showing signs of long term social stress and was responding to the abrupt change in its situation. When a constant stress is removed an animal sort of "gives up" its heroic attitude and shows weakness. Happens all the time with recent imports and I would bet it did here.
When I hear about the typical newbie cage setup (pretty minimal dimensions of 18"x18"x24" or a bit larger) I can't imagine successfully keeping a pair of chams in it for years regardless of gender. They might persist for a while but their quality of life wouldn't be great. Every creature deserves the ability to retreat from others and they just can't get that in such a tiny space. Every creature deserves be the boss of (to dominate) a personal territory of its own. Don't forget seasonal hormonal changes too. Behavior can change dramatically. Now if those same animals were housed in a room, a small greenhouse, a cage 6' on a side for example, it might be OK as they could both establish a turf that includes what they need. Just like a cham in its own bush in the wild. I wouldn't subject any pair of chams to a 100 or 260 gal flexarium and I will not suggest it to anyone who asks. If a very sensitive experienced cham keeper happens to ask me I would still say "well, you could try it if you know the particular animals well, but be prepared to separate them".
I know this was a tirade, but it is pretty basic understanding about what creatures need. I don't want my chams persisting in a minimal situation that is convenient for me, I want them thriving and showing me all aspects of healthy behavior! If I don't want this why keep them at all?
Off soapbox, end of the day, got to go walk the dog and split some firewood.
jojothefirst
New Member
I was listing to what you had to say but disagreeing with untill I read this part and then thought...This has to be the most stupid thing I have read on this site and you have no concept what so ever as to what people are telling you and proberly have no concept as to how to tell if your chams are stressed.
And if people start reading this thread and thinking it must be ok to keep them together because there are a few people that are doing it, please take note of this ridiculous comment and that the 2 people saying its ok are both junior members with little experince.
Why would you keep a female that had MBD issues, even if they had been corrected with a male knowing that she would breed and produce eggs constantly? She should have been kept separately and her husbandry controlled to give her the best chance of recovering and living a fairly long life IMHO.
Ok, well firstly, i never said anything about comparing human to a chameleon, and even if i had it is nothing like comparing a banana to a playstation. Also mine wasn't meant as an analogy, it was a rhetorical question.
Secondly, yours isn't even an analogy, neither does it have anything to do with anything that i said. If you were to change the wording slightly you could make it an analogy.
And lastly, going by what i think you are trying to say in your 'analogy', i wasn't telling anyone that they should house them together, i was simply pointing out that in my experience and many other cases i have come across that it can be done without harming or stressing either of them. And that every animal is different so you can not judge them all the same. Most people seem to believe that because one male is aggressive, or territorial etc, that they all are, all i'm saying is that that isn't the case. Even if this is the case 99% of the time that 1% left over still says that they are wrong.
Being a junior member only means that you don't leave many comments on the site, it has absolutely nothing to do with personal experience.
She had the MBD issues when i got her. She was taken out and housed alone as soon as i took her on but she sadly died a few weeks later due to renal problems that occurred as a result of the MBD.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
What are you talking about? In every post you make you contradict yourself.
Another example:
Perhaps you should take some time to get your story straight and then try to post something that makes any sense.
Chris
Another example:
Perhaps you should take some time to get your story straight and then try to post something that makes any sense.
Chris
Nixehface
New Member
Only noticed after I had made my comment that it was already said lol.
Being a junior member doesn't mean you have no experience!
I agree about never trying this if you are an in-experienced keeper but I do always find it fascinating to hear about people who have done so successfully and what problems they have come across.
Being a junior member doesn't mean you have no experience!
I agree about never trying this if you are an in-experienced keeper but I do always find it fascinating to hear about people who have done so successfully and what problems they have come across.
Nixehface
New Member
She is talking about a new female cham that she has put in with her male in a few of the things you just quoted, not the cham that died
dodolah
Retired Moderator
I think this is more a fitting explanation than the one you wrote about murderer and rapist in your previous post. There is so many things that can be debated when you are comparing a chameleon with human being. One of which is the fact that we are just not the same creature.
Even so, according to your numbers, 99% warrants a serious thought about why we recommend housing a single chameleon per cage. I think Juli, Chris A, and everyone I knew never said that housing 2 chameleons is impossible to do. We simply said that doing so will requires an expertise on knowing when enough is enough. Everyone who keep a chameleon more than a year or two should know that color alone is not the best indication of stress. There are so many variables that needed to be considered.. This is definitely too stressful for owners who still struggling to keep up with the basic cares. I think no one here can deny that Chameleon's basic care is pretty complicated and quite a lot for new keepers to swallow without having to add another complications.
Now that we established the fact that no one here said "Never" or "None at all" on this case, what Juli and others are trying to do here is to simply avoid the member from experiencing a tragedy with her female chameleon (most likely the victim in this type of housing.. although not always).
We have to realize the norm of chameleon's husbandry is established over trials and errors of chameleon keepers for many years. And, to dismiss those norms based on one or two experiences is a bit unfair, imho.
Also, certainly you can understand why people here would wrote "why you do that?"
Here is a better analogy in regard to what is happening in this thread (just to be clear, this is not an analogy for chameleon's behavior
), people always said that chocolate is poisonous to dogs. So, if one person come to a dog forum and post a thread, "I want to feed my dog chocolate. Which chocolate you think I should buy that would be best for my dog?"I bet many will say, "None. Chocolate are poisonous.. What are you thinking?"
and to say that those people knows nothing about how to care for a dog is a bit harsh.. don't you think?
BTW, this is the problem that I have found come up lately in this forum.. Idk if it's just the odd weather or something.
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Here, let me take the time to read over your posts in full detail.
They lived together just fine yet the female died at 18 months old, huh? A form of Metabolic Bone Disease (MBD) may have been the ultimate cause of her death but the proximate cause could very well have been the result of stress, being out competed for food or proper lighting, etc. Considering that the first female died prematurely, I think it is quite foolish of you to suggest that "they lived together just fine".
When the female died, a source of constant stimulation/stress was removed from the equation. These constant stressors are not always deleterious to the wellbeing of an animal but the resultant stimulation causes behavioral responses from the animals. When the source of stimulation is removed, these behavioral responses (activity and vibrant coloration, for example) decrease. That decrease in these behavioral responses may actually be beneficial so I would not draw the conclusion that the chameleon was not happy so hastily.
You reintroduced a source of constant stimulation/stress and the result was an increase in behavioral responses. This does not necessarily mean that the chameleon became any healthier. Its good to hear that you have not experienced any visible problems with the pair. Be sure to continue to keep an eye on them, however, as dynamics can change.
There is a difference between recommending against housing chameleon together to relatively inexperienced keepers who are at a higher risk of not being able to recognize more subtle signs of potentially detrimental stress and saying that they just can't be kept together. Before you make such rash generalization, you might want to consider the audience and circumstances the recommendation was provided for.
Again, you are confusing behaviorally stimulated with happy and healthy. Behavioral responses to stimulation require increased nutrients which could cause increased feeding. I'm not sure that based on what you've said I would automatically conclude your male was not healthy when he was kept individually.
The recommendations in this thread were based on the individual circumstances of the query. You'll note that in some of the original recommendations against keeping a pair together, much of the justification for that recommendation came from things such as the size of the enclosure, their age, etc. Don't confuse a recommendation with an absolute statement.
Actually it was an analogy in the form of a rhetorical question. You sought to draw similarity between variation within individuals of chameleons and the rhetorical question of whether one human criminal meant a separate human was also a criminal. That is called an analogy.
I think you need to look up the definition of "analogy" and contemplate the difference between absolute statements and recommendations based on individual cases. You seem to be confused about one of those.
The problem is you failed to address the potential dangers of it not working correctly and provide the proper background of the circumstances that it would possibly work under. In doing so, you provided incomplete information that new keepers could easily see and attempt to replicate without understanding what precautions need to be taken and what should be looked for. The safer recommendation, while not an absolute, is typically better than failing to provide a complete explanation of the exception.
Chris
My numbers were purely for example, i didnt get them from anywhere. They were just to get the point across that i was trying to make.
I understand what you're saying, all i ever meant right from the beginning was that it was possible to do.
And like where you said its unfair to dismiss the norms based on one or two experiences i feel that it is unfair for many people, not all, to dismiss these other experiences simply because they believe them to be a minority.
Nixehface
New Member
Well said!
