Mbd

I am a Certified Vet Tech and one of our clients dumped a veiled chameleon on us and wanted him euthanized because he has stopped eating. The vet I work for looked him over and diagnosed him with MBD but that's all she knows. We are a small community and don't see a lot of reptiles. He or she I have no idea, is very small and keeps holding his head. I was setting up to euthanize him and my coworkers talked me into trying to help him out as I have a Ball Python and therefore a UVB light and a tank. However none of us know what I should be doing. Today is my day off and I got him to drink water and I have him outside getting direct sunlight. I have heard about trying to get more nutritional crickets but right now I would be having to force feed him. I have access to medical equipment and supplies and am wondering if injectable Ca is needed. Please help!

MBD is progressive, and unfortunately irreversible. You can only halt it.

Here are some great resources about their care and MBD, compiled by those with firsthand chameleon experience:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/chameleons/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/

UVB, proper supplementation, and gutloading are very important:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

When hand-feeding, just make sure that you don't get anything down their airway. It is very easy to "drown" them, and they can very easily end up with a respiratory infection. Make sure the syringe is far down enough where it's bypassing the opening to the airway.

At work, for don't have time for a thorough response, but I'm sure others will chime in.

Oh don' t put him down!!! More experienced members can help more but as far as I know for mbd they used to get Ca shot. I really hope you can help him! They can live after mbd. At least you guys recognized the problem... Good news you gave him water 'cause he seems dehydrated.

Yes, they do have injectable calcium to help boost the levels. However, improving husbandry and making sure it's on point would be the best way to halt the illness. Try setting up an enclosure for him correctly and I'm sure he'll be much happier and active, and his appetite will improve. He probably wasn't in the best of conditions up until now...



Also, your vet should be able to call other vets who specialize in reptiles for a consult. Even if the vet doesn't know much about MBD, she should either already have or be able to acquire anything medical that us common folk don't have access to. Really, no offense, but that's all vets do for chams. We wouldn't have to go see them if we had all of the diagnostic equipment they have, and could prescribe meds ourselves.

symphonica said:

Really, no offense, but that's all vets do for chams. We wouldn't have to go see them if we had all of the diagnostic equipment they have, and could prescribe meds ourselves.

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i'm not offended, rather i'm amused. so you are ready to interpret blood panels, xrays, ultrasonography, see what cells are on the slide on an aspirate? pick the proper meds out of the thousands listed in Plumb's, dose correctly and avoid any drug interactions? i'm impressed! it took me many years of training, conferences, journals, continuing education and experience before i was able to do those things.

Welcome to the forums! Poor little one definitely has signs of MBD, but fortunately they can recover well from it with some TLC! It is a slow recovery because everything reptiles do is slow (including getting sick). Does your vet have liquid calcium syrup (calcium glubionate)? If not you should be able to order it through the clinic pretty easy. That and natural sunlight (or a fresh UVB bulb if sunlight isn't an option) will get that MBD turned around with time.

Here is a whole lotta info on MBD and how to treat it: https://www.chameleonforums.com/wha...ase-mbd-looks-like-how-happens-how-fix-95071/ I prefer not to do injectable calcium as the phoshporus levels are often high with MBD and it can trigger some dystrophic mineralization if both phosphorus and calcium are high. He is definitely afflicted by it but not to the point that I'd do an injection, and in which case I'd only do one. The last little veiled with MBD that I treated had all 4 legs broken, some in two places, and she recovered extremely well on oral calcium alone (in addition to diet improvements and UVB of course).

It is amazing how well they can turn around after serious mistreatment but don't give up on him yet!

ferret!! i was just complimented yesterday on my bedside manner. now you make me look like poop!

symphonica said:

We wouldn't have to go see them if we had all of the diagnostic equipment they have, and could prescribe meds ourselves.

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I am offended also.

I'm sorry it offended you. I was referring to general vets for MBD, but I'll open it up to any illness if that's where we're going (judging by O's reply). Ask a lot of the advanced, senior members here- they are fully capable of coming to their own, diagnostic conclusions. We don't need a vet to know they have RI. We cannot, however, get the antibiotics necessary to cure this.

During the decades I've had these guys, I can honestly say that I've never required the services of a vet apart from diagnostic or Rx purposes.

Give me a slide of the fecal exam and I will identify any parasites myself. Give me the blood test panel results and I will pick out what's wrong. In terms of dosage, weigh the chameleon and talk to other people to see what they were prescribed, and do the math. And obviously, interpreting an xray is like the easiest thing to do.

I don't know maybe it's because I went to vet school, but in terms of chameleons, I really don't see how much more a vet can do besides prescribing medications and making use of the diagnostic supplies available to them. And we're only talking about chameleons here, so you vets tell me how much you have actually done for chameleons.

I'm not talking about treating humans or even dogs for that matter, which have significantly more medication options and diagnoses. Tell me what you guys have diagnosed a chameleon with, outside the typical realm of respiratory infection, gout, edema, MBD, parasitic infections, burns, skin infections, blindness, dehydration, and organ failure resulting from prolonged poor husbandry. Maybe a swallowed tongue here and there?

And how many people have complained about their own doctor, saying, "they never know anything," or, "it's not like they're going to be able to do anything for me," and have bypassed the general practitioner to go directly to a specialist? Same thing in my opinion: typical that they're not going to be able to do much more for you then you can do for yourself if you had the means. We are not talking chameleon specialists here. It's so much more important to ensure that you have near-perfect husbandry than to run your chameleon to the vet

I think that's a little harsh :/ and surprising too as you always recommend someone take their Cham to the vet for X-rays, no matter the issue
Kath.

Yes, because an x-ray is a diagnostic measure, one which a common folk does not have access to. If you have an x-ray machine at home, go ahead and snap some pictures of your guy/gal and post them on this forum, and will be more than happy to take a look at them and make a diagnosis.

It seems as though people cannot properly comprehend the reading material without immediately jumping the gun, so let me clarify for those who are highly offended.

In terms of MBD (which is what this thread is about), the only thing that a general vet is going to be able to do is use the diagnostics measures and prescribing abilities made available to them. It's far more important to improve your husbandry than to take him to a non-specializing vet.

Now, for those if you were still offended, you are free to make comments regarding this post.

As a medical professional you know how most people coming into GP practices with a sinus infection get antibiotics without getting culture and sensitivity, rads, etc. There are problems which require extensive diagnostics, and there are those that do not. To discredit the entire profession over one health problem that is generally one that is corrected primarily at home (which is why I posted the entire treatment protocol in addition to physiology on a public thread) is a bit harsh don't you think? Can you go ahead and fix someone's egg bound chameleon over the internet when they post pictures?

I respect other medical professionals for the time and skill needed to do their line of work. I thought that perhaps I could get the same courtesy since I can do that as well (on multiple species) and went to the same amount of school as an MD. I'm not asking for more credit, merely the same respect you demand, because we both deserve it. Especially since I offer so much free advice on a multitude of health problems posted here on the forums. I guess that's not appreciated... I don't want to start a war of words over this. But I didn't start it either.

symphonica said:

Tell me what you guys have diagnosed a chameleon with, outside the typical realm of respiratory infection, gout, edema, MBD, parasitic infections, burns, skin infections, blindness, dehydration, and organ failure resulting from prolonged poor husbandry. Maybe a swallowed tongue here and there?

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Please do add: visceral gout, articular gout, osteomyelitis, stomatitis, acrodont periodontal disease, papilloma, herpes, neoplasia, organ failure not just from husbandry and not so easy to manage as just naming it on a list, conjunctivitis, sinus abscess, pnuemonia, hemipene prolapse, DYSTOCIA, cloacal prolapse, traumatic fractures, pathologic fractures, gular edema, necrotic tail, nasolacrimal duct blockage, vomiting, URI, interpreting bloodwork (very different from mammalian bloodwork), pododermatitis, osetoarthritis, nutritional, diarrhea, draining tracts, tongue troubles such as short tongue syndrome, sprains, abscess, vitamin deficiency, injury, etc.

I respect other medical professionals for the time and skill needed to do their line of work. I thought that perhaps I could get the same courtesy since I can do that as well (on multiple species) and went to the same amount of school as an MD. I'm not asking for more credit, merely the same respect you demand, because we both deserve it. Especially since I offer so much free advice on a multitude of health problems posted here on the forums. I guess that's not appreciated... I don't want to start a war of words over this. But I didn't start it either.[/QUOTE]

which is exactly why everyone I knew who went into veterinary medicine is now an MD instead (1 species), and why I for one have so much respect for you and all you do to help us here or in our communities. Thank You!

ferretinmyshoes said:

Please do add: visceral gout, articular gout, osteomyelitis, stomatitis, papilloma, herpes, neoplasia, conjunctivitis, sinus abscess, pnuemonia, hemipene prolapse, DYSTOCIA, cloacal prolapse, traumatic fractures, pathologic fractures, gular edema, necrotic tail, nasolacrimal duct blockage, vomiting, URI, pododermatitis, osetoarthritis, nutritional, diarrhea, draining tracts, tongue troubles such as short tongue syndrome, sprains, abscess, vitamin deficiency, injury, etc.

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You're a general vet (not chameleon specified) and have treated all of these in chameleons? Nonetheless, those are all very familiar to us. I will admit, you would have to go to a vet for surgery. However, how many chameleon surgeries has a general vet performed?

Yes, I am a general practitioner, and primarily work with dogs and cats, and I have seen most if not all of those problems in chameleons. Let me think...yep pretty much all of them. And I have performed several surgeries on chameleons including mass removals and spay for dystocia that was pre-ovulatory stasis.

Getting back to the topic at hand Ruchul, please feel free to message me or post on the thread if you have more questions or need help.

Fourtantly for vets we are not all as smart or experienced as symphonica. Or you'd all be out your jobs.