The reason why you should never use substrate.

RyU

RyU

New Member
I was asked to look at a chameleon that was sick, and who's owner could not afford to take to the vet. Apparently the cham hadn't eaten anything in a week and even stopped drinking a few days ago.

The cham looked overweight and the owner said it was "a new thing". After looking at the substrate in the tank I had a pretty good idea- Impaction. I misted him with warm water for about 20 minutes and found this. I have not seen anything like this in my life. This came from an 8 month old panther (I was so shocked by the poo I forgot to get a picture of the patient.)

The cham is eating and drinking now and looking mighty thin!

Never ever use substrate for chams guys. This is why.
 

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Hmm, that is the amount of poo my chameleon did almost everyday, i use substrate, but hand feed them, i really dont see anything wrong with the picture, but then i am new, so i might be wrong, lol

Sana
 
Sanababit said:
Hmm, that is the amount of poo my chameleon did almost everyday, i use substrate, but hand feed them, i really dont see anything wrong with the picture, but then i am new, so i might be wrong, lol

Sana
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That is pretty big poo for an 8 month old. It was half the size of his body.

Substrate can kill your chameleon.
 
They can have poo that big if they have not gone in awhile. Is there substrate in the poop? It looks like normal poop to me, just big. I was just wondering why you think substrate caused it.
 
Also something worth noting - reptiles can get congested if they aren't getting enough water, since there isn't as much lubrication in the body to move things around. If the cham's owners aren't misting as well as they should then a nice long drink will help things get going again. Since the urate is such a dark orange that's definitely a possibility.

I can't tell what's in the poop besides just a lot of it, but that's one of the really typical causes of constipation in general. Dehydration and calcium deficiencies are the two biggies.
 
carol5208 said:
They can have poo that big if they have not gone in awhile. Is there substrate in the poop? It looks like normal poop to me, just big. I was just wondering why you think substrate caused it.
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Yep. Looked like bark or something like that
 
Olimpia said:
Also something worth noting - reptiles can get congested if they aren't getting enough water, since there isn't as much lubrication in the body to move things around. If the cham's owners aren't misting as well as they should then a nice long drink will help things get going again. Since the urate is such a dark orange that's definitely a possibility.

I can't tell what's in the poop besides just a lot of it, but that's one of the really typical causes of constipation in general. Dehydration and calcium deficiencies are the two biggies.
Click to expand...

I can't really say how much they were misting, but they said it was on a daily basis. Twice a day.
 
RyU said:
I was asked to look at a chameleon that was sick, and who's owner could not afford to take to the vet. Apparently the cham hadn't eaten anything in a week and even stopped drinking a few days ago.

The cham looked overweight and the owner said it was "a new thing". After looking at the substrate in the tank I had a pretty good idea- Impaction. I misted him with warm water for about 20 minutes and found this. I have not seen anything like this in my life. This came from an 8 month old panther (I was so shocked by the poo I forgot to get a picture of the patient.)

The cham is eating and drinking now and looking mighty thin!

Never ever use substrate for chams guys. This is why.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you. It is possible that the substrate did not cause the problem, but why chance it? That said my pygmys do have substrate.
 
Substrate can cause impactions in many types of reptiles, it's important to know what animal needs what. Chams honestly should not have any type o loose substrate because of well known compaction issues.

That said, the picture doesn't clearly show the compaction material so some people may be a bit confused looking at it. I've seen something like that but it was due to dehydration. Soaking the animal clearly assisted regardless of the cause.

Well done ! on placing a scale in the photo. Many would forget the importance of that. A 5" long crap is not normal for any species, including a Parson's.
 
OldChamKeeper said:
Substrate can cause impactions in many types of reptiles, it's important to know what animal needs what. Chams honestly should not have any type o loose substrate because of well known compaction issues.

That said, the picture doesn't clearly show the compaction material so some people may be a bit confused looking at it. I've seen something like that but it was due to dehydration. Soaking the animal clearly assisted regardless of the cause.

Well done ! on placing a scale in the photo. Many would forget the importance of that. A 5" long crap is not normal for any species, including a Parson's.
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I should've taken the picture of when I opened it. The two biggest pieces were almost solid, brown bark like stuff. Looked like wood chips.
 
I had Lazy Boy go after some dirt, bark and perlite. It took two good showers to pass.







Make sure you keep the pots covered too.
 
Mike Fisher said:
I use substrate in all of my enclosures. It keeps the plants, isopods and springtails alive. My chams do pretty good too. ;)
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I'm curious about this. So, you're keeping colonies of feeders with your chameleons? What type of substrate do you use?
 
I use substrate too, its eco earth, i use just a small amount to cover the white plastic base inside the cage, it keeps humidity up and soaks some water from misting, i dont let loose any feeders inside cage unless i am watching, i do hand feed too, i have nosy be btw

Sana
 
RyU said:
I'm curious about this. So, you're keeping colonies of feeders with your chameleons? What type of substrate do you use?
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Isopods and springtails are more janitors than feeders. Although I would guess the chameleon might snack on them. :) I use them in my pygmy, gecko and anole setups.
 
MelissaB said:
Isopods and springtails are more janitors than feeders. Although I would guess the chameleon might snack on them. :) I use them in my pygmy, gecko and anole setups.
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I always figured using substrate would be more difficult to clean. It seems many people use substrate in pygmy setups. I've never kept them myself so I wouldn't know too much about it.

Almost every time I've seen substrate being used (I did too early on), I have heard about problems with the chameleons eating it (mostly by mistake).
 
Obviously some substrates are inherently dangerous any way you look at them (like, bark for example. Not even the digestive tract of Hercules himself can move along sharp, splintery material without at least some considerable discomfort) but I think the risk of impaction is greatly overdramatized. Not that I chastise people for avoiding risks, that's definitely their right and I'm happy to see people careful instead of neglectful. But a little soil or sand is really not an automatic death sentence for a healthy animal that isn't dehydrated or suffering from something like MBD.

I have to laugh because on one hand we say "females should be provided with a laying bin full of 12" of sand or soil all/most of the time" but then turn around and say "never ever have any substrate in cages and cover up your plant pots!" So it's a silly contradiction, in my opinion. Females routinely taste/eat the laying medium to check if they like it, and yet you don't see hoards of females dropping dead from a few mouthfuls of substrate every time they need to lay.

I don't keep my chameleons in planted cages (yet) or anything because it's impractical for me but I don't personally cover up any of my pots, I provide large open laying bins, and other reptiles (like geckos) have always lived in fully planted terrariums. The only thing I make sure of is to purchase organic soil without perlite, fertilizers, or pesticides, but that's about it.
 
Olimpia said:
Obviously some substrates are inherently dangerous any way you look at them (like, bark for example. Not even the digestive tract of Hercules himself can move along sharp, splintery material without at least some considerable discomfort) but I think the risk of impaction is greatly overdramatized. Not that I chastise people for avoiding risks, that's definitely their right and I'm happy to see people careful instead of neglectful. But a little soil or sand is really not an automatic death sentence for a healthy animal that isn't dehydrated or suffering from something like MBD.

I have to laugh because on one hand we say "females should be provided with a laying bin full of 12" of sand or soil all/most of the time" but then turn around and say "never ever have any substrate in cages and cover up your plant pots!" So it's a silly contradiction, in my opinion. Females routinely taste/eat the laying medium to check if they like it, and yet you don't see hoards of females dropping dead from a few mouthfuls of substrate every time they need to lay.

I don't keep my chameleons in planted cages (yet) or anything because it's impractical for me but I don't personally cover up any of my pots, I provide large open laying bins, and other reptiles (like geckos) have always lived in fully planted terrariums. The only thing I make sure of is to purchase organic soil without perlite, fertilizers, or pesticides, but that's about it.
Click to expand...

I was speaking strictly about coco fiber and larger pieces of substrate of course. I should have been more clear about hat at the start of my thread.

Sand, I don't think is a problem because it's fine enough to pass through the chameleon's digestive system. Eat large amount of it can't be good though..lol
 
RyU said:
I'm curious about this. So, you're keeping colonies of feeders with your chameleons? What type of substrate do you use?
Click to expand...

50:50 sand/peat moss mix, same as in my laying bin. Usually they just lay in the enclosure though.

Isopods and springtails are not feeders, they break down droppings. I don't clean my cages other than any dried droppings on the leaves.
 
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