5 week old male veiled chameleon questions

[Andee]

Umm considering how small he is currently I would keep him in something smaller than something for a 5 month old. However than can be rectified easily. You have the correct dimensions for most juvenile chameleons, sometimes depending on the species and personality they need to be upgraded quicker. However since he is so small, at the moment just make the cage you a building smaller by partitioning off part of it with something you can easily.remove later on.

 

[shilka]

I think I'm at the right path since I also thought about the partition. At least it's easy to expand the cage as he grow in size.

By the way, my dubias already arrived. I'm gonna give him some tomorrow. I also checked his food cup and there are no more blattas. Also found another poop with with and brown combination. I guess I'm doing well in keeping him. I just need to build his screen cage tomorrow. Thanks again for all the replies. It helped a lot. I'm gonna get back if I have some questions again.

I'll also update you guys once I confirmed if he is really a veiled or of another type. Thank you very much particularly Andee. Thanks!

 

[dmrich]

It does look like a Veiled to me (the first pictures seem to be baby stress colours, and the later picture with the lime green and white spots down the flank seems to tally) but the casque on the head is very under-developed. Perhaps this will develop as the baby grows as 5 weeks is very young to sell (as the body size is still disproportionate to the head when young). Also I cannot see any spurs (would need better picture) so the 'he' may in fact be a 'she' !

 

[marley patches]

He looks fine to me, but honestly I am not sure if he is a veiled. His body is not right. I am surprised someone would sell any chameleon at 5 weeks old. That's not a safe age in my opinion. In order for him to be more accepting of mist hitting him, when you mist by hand and only when you mist by hand, you can fill the bottle with hot water so when the mist comes out its warm. Usually they will react in the beginning but are less likely to run and more likely to drink. Other than that he looks a perfectly healthy weight. And the roach nymphs you are feeding are a perfect feeder for one his age. However feed then and dust them before giving them to him. And don't limit his feedings like you would other reptiles. Let him eat as much as he would within a couple minutes. So at his age I would say he should be eating at least 6 roach nymphs. Eating more is great.

looks like my female panther when she was young , going by the top of the head , there's no crown on this cham

 

[Andee]

Lol way too many possibilities, we may technically have to wait until he/she is older. Thankfully graceful, veiled, or panthers all have the same heating and dusting requirements generally. Their minimum cage sizes is what vary. And their diet.

 

[Kboz1991]

Veileds don't get there hat for a while I'm pretty sure their crown grows as they do in like 95% sure it's a veiled I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure

 

[Kboz1991]

Also females have smaller hats than males. around 2 to 3 months is when you start seeing it. don't hold me to it but I'm pretty sure

 

[Andee]

Well then he/she could easily be a veiled. The problem was that I have never seen a 5 week would veiled, and when you look up veileds on the forum for specific age ranges most people are severely wrong with their ages.

 

[Kboz1991]

Heres a video that shows the first 4 months

 

[Kboz1991]

Yeah I know what you mean 5 weeks is to young to sell but when I got my last panthers they were about a month old.

 

[shilka]

I'll update you guys once he have grown and starts to form much better.

By the way, do chameleons know if they are not able to swallow their prey due to large size? Just now I saw my chameleon grabbed a dubia nymph. I watched him and it took a lot of biting and swallowing attempt before he finally gave up and dropped it lifeless.

I started to worry because he might get choked. His feeders are the same size of his head. Is that too large or just right? Thanks!

 

[jajeanpierre]

I'll update you guys once he have grown and starts to form much better.

By the way, do chameleons know if they are not able to swallow their prey due to large size? Just now I saw my chameleon grabbed a dubia nymph. I watched him and it took a lot of biting and swallowing attempt before he finally gave up and dropped it lifeless.

I started to worry because he might get choked. His feeders are the same size of his head. Is that too large or just right? Thanks!

It sounds like you are feeding too large feeders.

Your baby looks dehydrated to me. Babies dehydrate very easily. Do you have a fogger? I've started using TaoTronics ultrasonic humidifiers as a fogger. They are about $35 on Amazon. S/he also looks kind of stunted to me, which could have been caused because the mother was malnourished and/or calcium deficient before forming the eggs. Where did you buy the baby from?

How big is your aquarium? I wouldn't be in a hurry to move the baby to a screen cage because it is much harder to keep humidity up. Do you have an automatic misting system? Most breeders keep babies in some kind of tub.

 

[Andee]

Idk about the dehydration thing. I don't trust pictures because chameleons usually pull their eyes in. So the first picture shows what could be considered dehydration but compared to the other ones it is very slight and I would more worry about moving the chameleon to a screen cage or at least getting a screen cage ready so that when the OP could afford an automatic mister it could be used safely. I agree buying a fogger would be useful and more useful in an aquarium.

Malnutrition is very possible and I totally agree with it. Keep on top of dusting and you might want to look into liquid calcium. Or maybe if the weather is right go out for some sunshine if you can that would be best, babies do amazing with some natural uvb.

I honestly wouldn't use an automatic mister unless you were there to monitor it through out the day to make sure it was drying out correctly. You should be able to do this for at least the first day.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Idk about the dehydration thing. I don't trust pictures because chameleons usually pull their eyes in. So the first picture shows what could be considered dehydration but compared to the other ones it is very slight and I would more worry about moving the chameleon to a screen cage or at least getting a screen cage ready so that when the OP could afford an automatic mister it could be used safely. I agree buying a fogger would be useful and more useful in an aquarium.

Malnutrition is very possible and I totally agree with it. Keep on top of dusting and you might want to look into liquid calcium. Or maybe if the weather is right go out for some sunshine if you can that would be best, babies do amazing with some natural uvb.

I honestly wouldn't use an automatic mister unless you were there to monitor it through out the day to make sure it was drying out correctly. You should be able to do this for at least the first day.

I wasn't looking at the eyes @Andee . The eyes don't tell you as much about their hydration level as you think they do. Look at the skin, how it fits on the body. Is the skin moist, supple and plump looking or tight and dry making the chameleon look emaciated. Look at the tail and around the hips first. The eyes are a clue, one piece of the puzzle of good health but only one piece of a whole puzzle.

The video @Kboz1991posted above shows nice healthy veiled babies. You can see the nice plump, supple skin they have covering their bodies. That's what you look for.

An automatic mister is fine for babies. You just need to be sure you don't drown them! I wouldn't worry about a baby cage not drying out, even a veiled baby's cage.

 

[Andee]

I agree he looks malnourished, however looking at his skin for dehydration he doesn't look dehydrated to me in that respect. Buy that's just my opinion. However I do believe strongly that babies need their cages to dry out in between mistings especially if the baby has not possibly had a great start to life. Babies are more prone to upper respitory infection especially when people are not aware of chameleon care.

 

[jajeanpierre]

I agree he looks malnourished, however looking at his skin for dehydration he doesn't look dehydrated to me in that respect. Buy that's just my opinion. However I do believe strongly that babies need their cages to dry out in between mistings especially if the baby has not possibly had a great start to life. Babies are more prone to upper respitory infection especially when people are not aware of chameleon care.

Are you basing that assertion of increased respiratory infection with high humidity on your own personal experience?

 

[Andee]

No because I have never gotten a baby that young from the get go. I have dealt with rescues who came to me that young who had respitory infections but they also had tons of other problems. However I have talked to many people on the forums, some in private messages, who had babies who were only a month old or so who started out with the wrong enclosure or who had to much water in their enclosures in general and had to deal with Uri. In my opinion it's not good for any animal no matter how old it is to have constant water in its enclosure with bad air flow.

 

[jajeanpierre]

No because I have never gotten a baby that young from the get go. I have dealt with rescues who came to me that young who had respitory infections but they also had tons of other problems. However I have talked to many people on the forums, some in private messages, who had babies who were only a month old or so who started out with the wrong enclosure or who had to much water in their enclosures in general and had to deal with Uri. In my opinion it's not good for any animal no matter how old it is to have constant water in its enclosure with bad air flow.

On the surface, what you are suggesting makes sense but I suggest you look a little deeper rather than just repeating what you have heard. I know you and others think I am just being argumentative when I question some of your and others' "common sense" advice but I am hoping that my challenging and questioning standard husbandry practices will spark a quest for science-based knowledge within the pet-keeping chameleon community because from my perspective, we seem to be doing a very poor job at keeping chameleons in captivity.

First, look at the humidity levels of where the animals came from. Many chameleons come from places where humidity stays at 100% for weeks and months at a time, where it rains every day and all day and night for weeks or months at a time. My own species of interest comes from the mountains of Cameroon where rainfall is in the range of 400 inches a year. That's a lot of water! So, for many species, humidity and wetness isn't the problem. Most chameleons thrive with very high humidity.

There are many reasons why a baby might have a respiratory infection or appear to have one. I think you will find that Vitamin A deficiency is a big one. Respiratory infections, skin disorders, egg binding, and a host of other problems are directly attributable to Vitamin A deficiency. Most chameleons are fed a diet deficient in Vitamin A and it is compounded as they are further removed from wild caughts. An egg should contain enough Vitamin A and calcium to supply the neonate with those nutrients for months. If the baby starts deficient and doesn't get enough through its life, how can it produce healthy babies? There is a reason veileds hatch with MBD.

Many think that feeding crickets a diet high in Beta Carotenes or a vitamin supplement high in Beta Carotene will solve the Vitamin A deficiency without the worrying aspect of a toxic dose. However, carnivores are notoriously poor at converting plant-based Beta Carotene into usable Vitamin A and there is no evidence that chameleons are capable of converting Beta Carotene to Vitamin A. (Beta Carotenes are the precursors of Vitamin A.) Vitamin A is stored primarily in livers and crickets have no livers. Crickets have about 1 IU of Vitamin A per gram. In Mader's veterinary text book, it was suggested an adult panther needs a daily dose of 37.5 IU of Vitamin A, which would translate to 37.5g of crickets which is never going to happen.

Vitamin A deficiency is not diagnosed using tests for the simple reason a blood test for it requires too much blood (maybe things have changed since Mader's book was published) or a liver biopsy. In general, a Vitamin A deficiency is diagnosed based on the response to treatment and history. Here is an example of a case study in Mader's text: Jackson's had oozing mucus from the lips. Antibiotic therapy proved ineffective. One injection of 5000 IU Vitamin A solved the problem in two weeks. Biopsies were also done that suggested skin changes typical of Vitamin A deficiency. Very few keepers are going to go to all that trouble and expense to diagnose a Vitamin deficiency. They will bring a sick animal with what appears to be a respiratory infection. The vet will prescribe antibiotics and the animal might get better, but the underlying condition might still be present.

I've had a couple of babies that seemed to have respiratory infections. Remember Runty? She didn't eat because her lung function was so compromised by lack of space. I've had a necropsy done on another baby that didn't thrive and ended up dying and the lungs were severely underdeveloped. How many keepers or breeders bother to necropsy any animal, let alone a baby that failed to thrive? You often don't know what you are dealing with without a necropsy or extensive veterinary care by a vet who is interested in delving deeper than the surface. Many vets are quite lazy when it comes to looking for tricky diagnoses--they just can't be bothered.

There are all kinds of conditions that can look like a respiratory infection that aren't.

Rather than humidity being the culprit in poor health, your contention that poor air circulation and stagnant air has some merit based on my own experience and a discussion with a respected reptile vet. When I've kept animals in small cages with poor air circulation I've had problems but they haven't been respiratory infections, rather skin infections. By the way, these animals never showed any symptoms of a respiratory infection.

I just think we all need to be very careful offering advice on keeping animals we have no experience with or at an age, especially a neonate, that we have no experience with. You have never kept neonates and your only experience with them is through PMs with others. That was not made clear when you posted your original advice and it should have been.

I can't stress enough the importance of understanding the animal's natural history and the climate where they are thriving and trying to to mimic that in captivity. Be aware, it is not just the current climate, but the climate from thousands of years ago before man deforested Madagascar for panthers and the Arabian Peninsula for veileds.

Mader, Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Second Edition, 2006

 

[Andee]

First off, I have had experience with neonates, I specifically said if you correctly read my post that I have dealt with rescues who have come to me as neonates. I have never personally ordered a neonate. The fact is most people do not have the ability to suddenly inject wild caught DNA into their chameleon so you have to adjust to the way their poor immune systems are and try to accommodate them as best as you can. You deal with almost exclusively wild caught chameleons or chameleons who are captive bred with very little removal from their wild genes. The fact is, I supplement my chameleons with a preformed Vitamin A multivitamin, the problem is, it is scientifically proven that raw unnatural vitamins (vitamins that are taken in powder or pill form) are not well absorbed or are absorbed in ways that can be harmful. When chameleons in nature can probably eat ten times as many vitamins than we provide in one dusting in a single day, yet because they are from a more natural and complete source it is less damaging and absorbed easier.

Now just because the humidity is 100% and there is rain all the time does not mean at all the air is stagnant. Outside, in the natural real world, they have breezes even if it doesn't feel like much at all. Plus air is constantly circulating outside. Pneumonia is as much of a problem with human when forced in stagnant and moist conditions as it is with reptiles.

 

[jajeanpierre]

First off, I have had experience with neonates, I specifically said if you correctly read my post that I have dealt with rescues who have come to me as neonates. I have never personally ordered a neonate. The fact is most people do not have the ability to suddenly inject wild caught DNA into their chameleon so you have to adjust to the way their poor immune systems are and try to accommodate them as best as you can. You deal with almost exclusively wild caught chameleons or chameleons who are captive bred with very little removal from their wild genes. The fact is, I supplement my chameleons with a preformed Vitamin A multivitamin, the problem is, it is scientifically proven that raw unnatural vitamins (vitamins that are taken in powder or pill form) are not well absorbed or are absorbed in ways that can be harmful. When chameleons in nature can probably eat ten times as many vitamins than we provide in one dusting in a single day, yet because they are from a more natural and complete source it is less damaging and absorbed easier.

Now just because the humidity is 100% and there is rain all the time does not mean at all the air is stagnant. Outside, in the natural real world, they have breezes even if it doesn't feel like much at all. Plus air is constantly circulating outside. Pneumonia is as much of a problem with human when forced in stagnant and moist conditions as it is with reptiles.

Andee, I was agreeing with you that stagnant air was a problem.

Genetics has something to do with vitality, but the genetics of my wild caughts is exactly the same as the genetics of many generations of captive bred animals. If they have lousy immune systems, it is not the "wild caught DNA" or lack thereof that is the culprit. It is likely husbandry and nutrition.

Gee whiz, Andee, I think this is the first time I've ever had someone imply that "wild caught" was some how an advantage to health and immune function. Most keepers use "wild caught" as an excuse for losing an animal.

What exactly are "raw unnatural vitamins"? And can you please cite the scientific proof you are referring to above? Thanks.