snitz427
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm talking about both. The general consensus that everyone seems to have is that roaches are bomb proof and immune to everything. I mean we know they are damn hard to kill!
Aflactoxicosis, crickets and moldy grain
- Thread starter JacksJill
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I'm talking about both. The general consensus that everyone seems to have is that roaches are bomb proof and immune to everything. I mean we know they are damn hard to kill!
Speaking of the toxin again. I just wonder how many wobbly chameleons may have been affected by this rather than weakness from low calcium levels. How many times was a case of gular edema a case of mild toxicity?
I think people should have this in the back of their mind when they see either of these symptoms and look into wether or not they have been feeding moldy chow.
I think people should have this in the back of their mind when they see either of these symptoms and look into wether or not they have been feeding moldy chow.
snitz427
Chameleon Enthusiast
It does seem like it takes repeated exposure over a few weeks... an idea I think I will put into practice is that if I suspect any illness or health concern with a cham, that I'll swap their primary feeder for a bit until diagnosed or cured. That's tough for me because I rotate most of the time between 3... but 1 of those is silkworms which seem to be of little concern and low risk.
snitz427
Chameleon Enthusiast
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well on that note. Back to Janet's thread, she said she had a batch of circkets than she could turn Edema on and off with.
Feed the crickets Edema,
Don't feed it goes away. That's pretty scary.
She also said, she knew a bunch of others who had the same. And Janet traveled in a different circle then us, she was in big with importers and mass breeders, they may be able to spot things, we just can't on our much smaller scales.
It's hard to notice patterns and such, when you have 5 or 6 feeders and 5-6 Chams. When dealing with hundreds, things change and patterns and issues become more visible.
Graves923
Chameleon Enthusiast
My fiance would disagree with that sometimes while giving me the look....
If the overall husbandry was great and the only thing weird was how much pothos they ate then maybe. Usually the husbandry is so bad plant eating couldn't be less than a tenth of the problem. They grow fast and they have metabolic needs if the keeper messes up it shows quickly.
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Why are we skeptical of that, but not of these aflatoxins though?
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Skeptical of poor supplmentation, bad lighting, and pet store advice. 100%
.As we get older we lose faith in humanity
.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
One of the consulting vets for my disaster did a research fellowship at Zoological Society of London. He did (and still does) research work with birds and reptiles. He's written many veterinary text books on avian medicine.
He was sure it was aflatoxicosis, something he said was underdiagnosed. (How many people spend thousands of dollars on necropsies like I did?) He also said, "'We' never had a problem when we raised our own crickets on potatoes." I don't know who the "we" was because he ended up specializing in avian reproduction.
All veterinary pathologists and vets agreed it was a toxin.
Aflatoxins are one of the most potent toxins and it is dose specific.
The mold that causes aflatoxins, aspergillus, is everywhere. It grows particularly well on poorly stored grain, especially corn.
There have been other very similar incidents other breeders have shared with me but asked me to keep it confidential. I can think of four incidents very similar to mine where the breeders lost large numbers on animals.
@jajeanpierre Thank you for chiming in. Your experience, sad as it was, has provided valuable information. I think this is a condition that people need to put on their differential diagnosis when weakness is a symptom.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
Feed mills test their grain for aflatoxins. It is a human health hazard.
On the contrary, I think quads and graciliors are very resiliant. I had baby graciliors that were in convulsions and lying on the bottom of the cage on their back for weeks. Here's a picture of one that would go into convulsions any time I handled it (force fed twice a day). It was on death's doorstep for weeks. He was 10 grams when he got sick. He's a big boy now.
The C. malthe were very hard hit. Few survived that were affected while most quads and graciliors recovered.
jajeanpierre
Chameleon Enthusiast
I lost a lot more than six. A lot more. I can't even remember. I think I lost half of my malthe so that's six right there. I lost a lot more than six quads and graciliors. Some were killed for necropsies and might have recovered. The quads and graciliors I lost were babies except one adult wc gracilior. Few of the adults seemed ill. It showed up mostly in the baby quads and graciliors and even the sickest baby lying writhing on its back would recover with intense care. Any Calumma malthe that got sick, even adult long term captives, died except one.
Somehow my posts are getting mixed up. I blame my laptop which has a mind of its own.
The picture of the big male gracilior male in the post above is one of the affected babies. He was 10 grams and in convulsions on the bottom of his cage. For two weeks I wasn't sure if he would live or die. Whenever I handled him (twice a day force feeding diluted carnivore care) would send him into convulsions. I wasn't sure my feeding and hydrating him wasn't going to kill him right there in my hands. He recovered after weeks of intensive care. I had babies that would lie ON THEIR BACKS and black on the bottom of the cage that recovered. The big male above was one of the worst affected babies.
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