Airplane?

[scs]

Hi everyone,
I'm moving to Australia (from Pennsylvania) next June, and at first I was super optimistic about bringing everything and everyone with me... but now I'm realizing how complicated this will be. Does anyone have any experience bringing chameleons on planes as a carry-on? I love my panther cham, Sebastian, so much and I can't bear the thought of leaving him behind with someone else. So even though the move is far in the future, I can't help but wonder how I'd keep him warm on a 17 hour flight and how he'd do in 10 day quarantine. I know chameleons are really sensitive to stress and I need rational opinions to make sure that I'm thinking straight because all I can think about is how I can't even imagine how much I'd miss him. I skimmed other posts about bringing chameleons on airplanes and I realize this is a controversial topic but be gentle, okay?

Thanks for your input!

PS: the weather in Australia would be perfect for him... but I'm also worried about the poisonous spiders which I'd have to read up on

 

[leedragon]

Hi everyone,
I'm moving to Australia (from Pennsylvania) next June, and at first I was super optimistic about bringing everything and everyone with me... but now I'm realizing how complicated this will be. Does anyone have any experience bringing chameleons on planes as a carry-on? I love my panther cham, Sebastian, so much and I can't bear the thought of leaving him behind with someone else. So even though the move is far in the future, I can't help but wonder how I'd keep him warm on a 17 hour flight and how he'd do in 10 day quarantine. I know chameleons are really sensitive to stress and I need rational opinions to make sure that I'm thinking straight because all I can think about is how I can't even imagine how much I'd miss him.

Thanks for your input!

PS: the weather in Australia would be perfect for him... but I'm also worried about the poisonous spiders which I'd have to read up on

I think the issue is about the australian government allowing (not allowing) to introduce non native species to the country.

 

[Lathis]

To my knowledge, no airlines allow reptiles in the cabin as carry ons. I looked into this sometime back and got a solid "no" across the board.

Also, you would have some pretty intensive export/import permits and fees. Plus, I'm not sure Australia allows chameleons.

Do some research to verify, but I worry that it may not be possible for your cham.

 

[Devokid]

I have carried them on to many plane rides, so I doubt that you will have an issue there. TSA and the flight crews have always been very friendly, however, you may get the bible belt gate agent that flips out and thinks that it is a poisonous monster sent from hell to kill her (happened to me once with a 2 week old Jackson), so I avoid showing the check in people now.

That being said, you will most likely have a huge issue with the Australian Government. Most countries do not like you bringing in animals. They usually have a lot of red tape associated and may need to have a quarantine period. I would check with the Ausie Gov directly.

 

[guanagator]

I believe Australia has long banned any non native reptiles as pets and also requires licensing for native species. Best of luck.

 

[NHenn]

The issue most likely won't be with the airline but with Australia's import policy. You will need to obtain CITES permits to have him leave the country and enter Australia. As far as I know, they are banned from Australia as they are non native which means they will never issue said permits to bring one in.

 

[Lathis]

I have carried them on to many plane rides, so I doubt that you will have an issue there. TSA and the flight crews have always been very friendly, however, you may get the bible belt gate agent that flips out and thinks that it is a poisonous monster sent from hell to kill her (happened to me once with a 2 week old Jackson), so I avoid showing the check in people now.



y.

The TSA likely isn't going to give you any grief, but when I checked with most of the major airlines, they had company policies against reptiles in the cabin. If you're quiet about it you might be fine on a domestic flight (as it seems you have been), but I would hate for someone to get turned away at the gate because they read that it was "okay" here.

For international flights, without the proper permits in place, your animal will get confiscated, you will be fined for animal smuggling, and the animal will likely be destroyed. Not a happy ending for anyone.

 

[brownie64]

Australia has had a lot of issues with introduced species like the cane toad. So yah I would think they might have an issue with non native species. I would definitely check with their government first.

 

[Carlton]

The TSA likely isn't going to give you any grief, but when I checked with most of the major airlines, they had company policies against reptiles in the cabin. If you're quiet about it you might be fine (as it seems you have been), but I would hate for someone to get turned away at the gate because they read that it was "okay" here.

This. You cannot assume or expect any major airline will allow you to bring a herp of any kind in the cabin! Even if you could, as others have said you may well get it confiscated at the Aussie end when you go through customs. Your cham will end up who-knows-where or destroyed unless you have permits. The most responsible thing for you cham is to find it another home.

 

[scs]

Thank you so much everyone! This is definitely going to be much harder than I thought and I'll do as much research as I can, although it seems like for a 17 hour flight headed towards a strict import policy I might have to find him a new home.

If I do find a way to legally bring Sebastian on the plane with me with 100% confidence he won't be taken away at Australian customs or something, then would it even be okay for him health wise? Ignoring all things legal and policy, would he even be okay during/after the flight? As in warmth and hydration?

 

[jajeanpierre]

Thank you so much everyone! This is definitely going to be much harder than I thought and I'll do as much research as I can, although it seems like for a 17 hour flight headed towards a strict import policy I might have to find him a new home.

If I do find a way to legally bring Sebastian on the plane with me with 100% confidence he won't be taken away at Australian customs or something, then would it even be okay for him health wise? Ignoring all things legal and policy, would he even be okay during/after the flight? As in warmth and hydration?

Oh boy, where do I start.

Airlines. If you can get the proper paperwork, the animal will have to go in cargo just like dogs and cats. It is a temperature controlled and pressurized baggage compartment. That's a few hundred bucks.

Next is the US government, US Fish and Wildlife.

Is a Panther CITES I or CITES II?

Either way, you need an CITES export permit. That's not easy or cheap. You will have to have your shipment--and he is a shipment--inspected by US Fish and Wildlife for around $250. There can be other fees such as Port Exemption fees.

If they are CITES I, you will need a CITES Import Permit from the Australian government. That is different from any import permits that might also be required by Australia.

Don't ever try to smuggle the animal on the aircraft. How do you expect to get him past security? Your bags are x-rayed and you go through a body scan or a pat down. You will lose the chameleon and likely have a criminal charge for smuggling.

Delta and Lufthansa are both excellent airlines for handling animals

If you are serious about doing this, you need to approach the Australian government to find out if they will allow the import of a chameleon. Make sure you speak to the correct people. If the Australian counterpart to US Fish and Wildlife is anything like USFW, you will get 5 or 6 different answers to the same question.

 

[scs]

Okay, I realize there are a ton of legal complications to navigate through and costs too, but right now my biggest concern before I even continue to start sifting through airline policies is if Sebastian would be safe. I appreciate your help with all of the different people I have to contact and giving me a heads up for the costs.

Even if the cargo area has a stable temperature and is pressurized, would Sebastian exit the plane in good health? Wouldn't he be over stressed? Should he be sedated? Is there a chance of him not surviving such a long (17-18 hour) flight due to hydration or something? If he leaves the plane weak and enters a 10 day quarantine stressed will he be okay? Because if there is a chance that Sebastian wouldn't arrive in Australia in good health then there's no question if I'm going to risk his well being.

I just need a straight answer and want to know the risks on his health so that I know if I should even bother trying to get all of the permits and navigate the policies to ensure his legal entry into Australia. Sebastian's well being is my priority, and then comes trying to find a way to bring him with me.

 

[Lathis]

I think your straight answer is he will not be allowed in Australia. Based on the quick research i have done, it's a "no go" for chameleons.

As for a 10 day quarantine at a facility equipped for dogs and cats in a foreign country, where you have no control over care and may not be allowed to see your animal? And for an animal with such specialized care? That's a "no go" for me. He might survive, but it would certainly be a very stressful situation and could be detrimental to his health.

I really hope you're able to find a good new home for him. It must be so hard to leave pets/friends behind on your new adventure.

 

[Rufi0]

If it helps this is my experience relocating to another country, sorry for the essay.

I recently moved from England to Austria (2 hour flight). I looked into bringing my Panther Chameleon as hand luggage by plane but none of the airlines would accept it and would only allow him to be taken in the undercarriage using an approved third party.

The third parties all quoted £1000+ and didn't mention if the crate (and they all quoted "crates" purely in dimensions) would be thermoregulated. I presumed they wouldn't do it as it was only a 2 hour flight.

I decided as it was such a huge cost to transport him and the conditions were ambiguous / could be detrimental to his health, to work out how I could take him by car across Europe. Which I did. I know this is not an option for you but if you look into bringing him in the undercarriage try and find out what the conditions will be like in there during the flight eg temps, air quality etc.

Thats just the physical aspect of getting him there. The second was the legality of importing and transporting him.

In England we have a "Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs" or DEFRA which cover how to import or export your pet

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs

They really helped me know what to do and who to talk to. Is there an American equivalent you could talk to ?

As I was travelling by car and train I had to check with all the countries that I was travelling through if they had policies regarding reptiles to make sure I would be allowed. Luckily for me most European countries do not seem to be bothered with reptiles unless they are CITES protected or on a venomous/toxic banned list. My girlfriend also mentioned that she believed there was an issue in Austria regarding the status of the reptile regarding it being Captive Bred or not.

So what I did was go back to the store I purchased Nosy from and rewrite my receipt including the particulars of when he was born, stating that he was captive bred and including the shops contact info and stamp. So there was a record of exactly where he came from.

I then went to my Exotic Vet in England and along with Nosy's physical checkup ensuring he was healthy to travel, I got them give me a certificate to state he was healthy to travel and then reaffirm that he is captive bred and that he is NOT on the CITES endangered list.

Knowing that I had the paperwork and Nosy was safe to travel we went on our little road trip. We went through France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and finally Austria and there were no border gates or stops. So at no point did anyone question me having a reptile. Which was a bit of a kick in the face regarding all the research and the paperwork and the cost of the certificates. But Nosy is safe and happy which is the most important thing.

I would look into if there is an American DEFRA who could help you as they will know / will be better positioned to look up most of the foreign laws regarding import and export.

Then also contact someone Australia side regarding the import of your chameleon.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/wildlife-trade/exotics

On this page they give you options along with a contact

Contact
The Director
Wildlife Trade Regulation Section
Department of the Environment
GPO Box 787
Canberra ACT 2601
Telephone: (02) 6274 1900
Facsimile: (02) 6274 1921
Email: [email protected]

It also looks like you will need a permit to import him Panther Chameleons are CITES Appendix II

"If you want to trade in Appendix II species to/from Australia you will generally need both a CITES export and import permit issued by CITES management authorities."

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/wildlife-trade/permits

Good luck

Pete

 

[jajeanpierre]

I just need a straight answer and want to know the risks on his health so that I know if I should even bother trying to get all of the permits and navigate the policies to ensure his legal entry into Australia. Sebastian's well being is my priority, and then comes trying to find a way to bring him with me.

The straight answer is probably. Accidents happen. He will be put in a baggage compartment that is pressurized and climate controlled. I believe it shares the same pressure/heating/air conditioning that the cabin does.

The actual flying is probably not an issue; the issue will be how he is handled on the ground. He might be left to cook on the tarmac at an airport.

Many reptiles and chameleons are wild caught and they all end up flying somewhere. Some die in transit but usually their death was from their poor physical condition when they were shipped off. Wild caughts are often kept in horrific conditions at holding facilities before being shipped and if they are still breathing they go into the box. Many don't survive the trip but that has more to do with their condition before they were packed.

I think it is a moot point. I don't think Australia will allow him in. Find the answer to that question first. I think I've read many threads by people who have moved from Australia and are thrilled to finally be able to fulfill a lifetime dream and keep a chameleon for the first time in their new home country.

 

[guanagator]

X2 to the post above, not the flight but all the sitting around on loading docks and in warehouses without AC. I've had a pair of snakes get stranded due to fed ex incompetence and it's next to impossible to get someone to put hands on your animals box to ensure safe temps if something goes wrong, in my case was extremely lucky and my animals were not cooking in Florida but still in a colder state despite the tracking saying otherwise.

On the legality question I did some looking and it appears you must have a zoological license to have a chameleon. Native reptiles are allowed as pets however they are subject to a tiered licensing system plus regional restrictions.

 

[Ben65434]

If it helps this is my experience relocating to another country, sorry for the essay.

I recently moved from England to Austria (2 hour flight). I looked into bringing my Panther Chameleon as hand luggage by plane but none of the airlines would accept it and would only allow him to be taken in the undercarriage using an approved third party.

The third parties all quoted £1000+ and didn't mention if the crate (and they all quoted "crates" purely in dimensions) would be thermoregulated. I presumed they wouldn't do it as it was only a 2 hour flight.

I decided as it was such a huge cost to transport him and the conditions were ambiguous / could be detrimental to his health, to work out how I could take him by car across Europe. Which I did. I know this is not an option for you but if you look into bringing him in the undercarriage try and find out what the conditions will be like in there during the flight eg temps, air quality etc.

Thats just the physical aspect of getting him there. The second was the legality of importing and transporting him.

In England we have a "Department for Environment Food & Rural Affairs" or DEFRA which cover how to import or export your pet

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-environment-food-rural-affairs

They really helped me know what to do and who to talk to. Is there an American equivalent you could talk to ?

As I was travelling by car and train I had to check with all the countries that I was travelling through if they had policies regarding reptiles to make sure I would be allowed. Luckily for me most European countries do not seem to be bothered with reptiles unless they are CITES protected or on a venomous/toxic banned list. My girlfriend also mentioned that she believed there was an issue in Austria regarding the status of the reptile regarding it being Captive Bred or not.

So what I did was go back to the store I purchased Nosy from and rewrite my receipt including the particulars of when he was born, stating that he was captive bred and including the shops contact info and stamp. So there was a record of exactly where he came from.

I then went to my Exotic Vet in England and along with Nosy's physical checkup ensuring he was healthy to travel, I got them give me a certificate to state he was healthy to travel and then reaffirm that he is captive bred and that he is NOT on the CITES endangered list.

Knowing that I had the paperwork and Nosy was safe to travel we went on our little road trip. We went through France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and finally Austria and there were no border gates or stops. So at no point did anyone question me having a reptile. Which was a bit of a kick in the face regarding all the research and the paperwork and the cost of the certificates. But Nosy is safe and happy which is the most important thing.

I would look into if there is an American DEFRA who could help you as they will know / will be better positioned to look up most of the foreign laws regarding import and export.

Then also contact someone Australia side regarding the import of your chameleon.

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/wildlife-trade/exotics

On this page they give you options along with a contact

Contact
The Director
Wildlife Trade Regulation Section
Department of the Environment
GPO Box 787
Canberra ACT 2601
Telephone: (02) 6274 1900
Facsimile: (02) 6274 1921
Email: [email protected]

It also looks like you will need a permit to import him Panther Chameleons are CITES Appendix II

"If you want to trade in Appendix II species to/from Australia you will generally need both a CITES export and import permit issued by CITES management authorities."

http://www.environment.gov.au/biodiversity/wildlife-trade/permits

Good luck

Pete

If you have time can you post a "trip report?" Your trip sounds really interesting.

 

[scs]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge! I hadn't even thought of the repercussions of airline incompetence in handling... I need some time to mull this all over and talk to my family, but I feel much more educated now and think that whatever we decide it will indeed be best for Sebastian. I already have to give away some of my pets so this is going to be tough not to be biased...

Anyway, thanks for the help!

 

[Carlton]

Thank you all for sharing your knowledge! I hadn't even thought of the repercussions of airline incompetence in handling... I need some time to mull this all over and talk to my family, but I feel much more educated now and think that whatever we decide it will indeed be best for Sebastian. I already have to give away some of my pets so this is going to be tough not to be biased...

Anyway, thanks for the help!

I know its tough, believe me! You are doing exactly what you should be...getting the facts ahead of time and considering Sebastian above all. Transporting exotics across international borders is regulated for many good reasons and is the simple reality. While no law is ever perfect, CITES has done a lot to protect hundreds of species worldwide. Australia has managed to protect a lot of its native wildlife and habitats by being very restrictive and cautious. The poster child demonstration of damage from imported/released/smuggled, dumped, or cargo-infested species is Hawaii. Many of their totally endemic plants and animals are critically threatened because of poor importation and inspection controls. Once gone they are gone for good.

 

[Rufi0]

If you have time can you post a "trip report?" Your trip sounds really interesting.

He he cheers Ben, I was planning to, especially about the part where Nosy became potentially the fastest chameleon in the world when we discovered we were on the German Autobahn which has no speed limit. However my son was born early this week and adjusting to that I'm finding it hard to sneak on ChameleonForums, and when I do its the "NickyChameleon" show so I usually give up and go back to reading up on how to be a first time Father

Hopefully in the future when things have settled down, I appreciate the interest.

Pete