Are Panther Chameleons different species?

[DeremensisBlue]

There has been much discussion over just what Furcifer pardalis is. Are they morphs or are they actually separate species? A recent paper portrayed their findings as suggesting there are multiple species. When presented with something like this I always like to get some expert opinions. So in ep 145 of the Chameleon Academy Podcast I bring on Dr. Mark Scherz, who is a scientist working on Madagascar reptiles and amphibians, to discuss this paper and Furcifer pardalis. I am disappointed to say there are no definitive answers, but this journey of following the work of evolutionary biologists as they figure these things out is exciting!

To listen, find episode 145 of the Chameleon Academy Podcast on any podcast app, download the free Chameleon Academy app (on either Google Play or Apple App Store), or listen online at https://chameleonacademy.com/ep-145-the-panther-chameleon-species-with-dr-mark-scherz/


Or else, just listen in here on the Chameleon Forums!



If you would like to reference the paper we are talking about it is open to the public and can be seen here:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.13241

 

[Persnickety Parson's]

I wouldn't be surprised, the alligator snapping turtle was thought to be one turtle, then genetic testing revealed it was actually two, possibly three separate species.

 

[kinyonga]

It will be interesting to hear!
I posted this one last year...
https://www.discovermagazine.com/pl...in-madagascars-panther-chameleon#.XXsNJeus-K0

 

[jamest0o0]

Hasn't this been brought up a few times, like a pretty long time ago?

 

[Brad]

I finally got a chance to check out the new podcast episode. Thank you Dr. Scherz and Chameleon Academy. I enjoy discussions that focus on speciation.

 

[saradoggy10]

This is just amazing
Im really hoping to do more research on this myself and I'll have to contact some scientists like this to help out!
Who believes that Panthers should not be cross bred at all? What's your stance?

 

[Prince of Duval]

He’s got an episode on that too!

 

[saradoggy10]

He’s got an episode on that too!

YEAHH

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I haven't listened to the podcasts yet, but the topic seemed timely to me as I just came across this, this morning, and was considering asking about it. Probably old news (2015) to many here, as
jamest0o0 noted.

One Chameleon, Eleven Chameleons: Genetics Reveal Cryptic Species in Madagascar's Panther Chameleon

Madagascar's panther chameleon is really 11 separate species

Colorful Find: Madagascar Chameleon Actually 11 Distinct Species

I'm also curious which locales these 11 species (wouldn't they actually be sub-species?) correspond to.

Who believes that Panthers should not be cross bred at all? What's your stance?

I was reading another article this morning (sorry, no link—I had no idea it might be relevant at the time) saying that breeders are crossing (selectively and otherwise) different locales to achieve new & different characteristics.

This is what happened to bearded dragons; there's been so much selective breeding that true "standard" (or "classic" or "normal") morphs can virtually no longer be found outside of Australia, and exporting wild specimens (to improve or restore lines) has been illegal since the '60s (IIRC).

My concern is that something similar could happen with chameleons.

Mongrelization of the races! Will no-one think of the hatchlings‽
Kidding... of course... But then there's that old Vulcan philosophy, Kol-Ut-Shan (IDIC*)

*Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations

I guess I'm on the fence. I think it's a question worthy of serious consideration & discussion before the breeders go nuckin' futz. (Joke!)

 

[saradoggy10]

I haven't listened to the podcasts yet, but the topic seemed timely to me as I just came across this, this morning, and was considering asking about it. Probably old news (2015) to many here, as
jamest0o0 noted.

One Chameleon, Eleven Chameleons: Genetics Reveal Cryptic Species in Madagascar's Panther Chameleon

Madagascar's panther chameleon is really 11 separate species

Colorful Find: Madagascar Chameleon Actually 11 Distinct Species

I'm also curious which locales these 11 species (wouldn't they actually be sub-species?) correspond to.


I was reading another article this morning (sorry, no link—I had no idea it might be relevant at the time) saying that breeders are crossing (selectively and otherwise) different locales to achieve new & different characteristics.

This is what happened to bearded dragons; there's been so much selective breeding that true "standard" (or "classic" or "normal") morphs can virtually no longer be found outside of Australia, and exporting wild specimens (to improve or restore lines) has been illegal since the '60s (IIRC).

My concern is that something similar could happen with chameleons.

Mongrelization of the races! Will no-one think of the hatchlings‽
(Kidding... of course... But then there's that old Vulcan philosophy, IDIC.)

I guess I'm on the fence. I think it's a question worthy of serious consideration & discussion before the breeders go nuckin' futz. (Joke!)

If im honest I was thinking becoming a breeder someday.
What if a breeder were to breed both pure and mixes but only one generation designers? Insisting the rule that you don't breed a second generation of hybrids.

 

[cyberlocc]

If im honest I was thinking becoming a breeder someday.
What if a breeder were to breed both pure and mixes but only one generation designers? Insisting the rule that you don't breed a second generation of hybrids.

The issue is when the animals are sold.

You breed, Ambilobe X Ambajana. You sell babies.

Joe Buys baby.

Joe Breeds Baby to anything.

Lines are muddied, and will keep being so. This is already an issue in the hobby. With lots of animals not showing purity traits. Its getting worse. Not completely on purpose. Importers are not the most reliable with locale data. So when Females show up, its their word what it is and half the time thats not even accurate.

Then we see Wild Population of Panthers in Florida. They are shades of grey (at least the ones I have seen, I don't live in FL though lol). I would bet that's due to the population starting from mixed escapes. They have become colorless mutts. Coild be wrong, only time will tell.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Who believes that Panthers should not be cross bred at all? What's your stance?

I know I responded to this already, but I just (5 min. ago) came across what I think is an excellent point.

From: https://pantherchameleonworld.com/buying-chameleons/buying-panther-chameleons/
(The same site where I got the list of locales & descriptions of their differences.)

Captive breeding programs for the pet trade should aim to avoid hybridizing individual Panther Chameleons from different locales, as such hybrids have been shown to be reproductively inferior to offspring born of parents from the same locality. Chameleon enthusiasts looking to buy a Panther Chameleon should encourage best practice [by] avoiding the purchase of hybrids where possible.

Rhetorical: Could this tie into the notion that "locales" are actually different species? I.e. interspecial breeding often results in infertility (mules).

 

[saradoggy10]

These are all very interesting contributions. Normally breeding two species of relatively different genetics provides a very healthy offspring, but this does further suggest that they are different species.
Also I didn't know about that gray chameleon thing, that's hella cool.

Are they *all* different species though? What if you were to breed two Panthers with similar colors and origin? The term "generally" raises some questions.
(This is all so interesting I'm having a blast)

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Rhetorical: Could this tie into the notion that "locales" are actually different species? I.e. interspecial breeding often results in infertility (mules).

I misspake [sic]. As I mused above,

I'm also curious which locales these 11 species (wouldn't they actually be sub-species?) correspond to.

IOW, I don't know if the 11 species even correlate to "locales." Absent evidence to the contrary, we shouldn't assume. The current list of locales I'm working off of (just collecting data at this point) comprise twenty.

 

[cyberlocc]

These are all very interesting contributions. Normally breeding two species of relatively different genetics provides a very healthy offspring, but this does further suggest that they are different species.
Also I didn't know about that gray chameleon thing, that's hella cool.

Are they *all* different species though? What if you were to breed two Panthers with similar colors and origin? The term "generally" raises some questions.
(This is all so interesting I'm having a blast)

I dont know how told you that hybridization usually ends in a healthy animal, that is very rarely the case. In the few cases where hybridation is a true success, with a strong offspring, with no issues they alot of times have breeding issues.

There is some natural cases of Hybrid leading to new species, that exist today. That are as strong or stronger than the original species, and can breed, but they are very old and Nature did that not Man.

I misspake [sic]. As I mused above,

IOW, I don't know if the 11 species even correlate to "locales." Absent evidence to the contrary, we shouldn't assume. The current list of locales I'm working off of (just collecting data at this point) comprise twenty.

The most complete locale list I have seen is 34.

https://www.madcham.de/en/category/...ten/lokalformen-von-furcifer-pardalis/page/4/

The 11, and maybe your 20, tend to come from Locales in the hobby. Ones that are exported and kept/bred, but there is alot that are in protected forests ect.

 

[saradoggy10]

I dont know how told you that hybridization usually ends in a healthy animal, that is very rarely the case. In the few cases where hybridation is a true success, with a strong offspring, with no issues they alot of times have breeding issues.

There is some natural cases of Hybrid leading to new species, that exist today. That are as strong or stronger than the original species, and can breed, but they are very old and Nature did that not Man.




The most complete locale list I have seen is 34.

https://www.madcham.de/en/category/...ten/lokalformen-von-furcifer-pardalis/page/4/

The 11, and maybe your 20, tend to come from Locales in the hobby. Ones that are exported and kept/bred, but there is alot that are in protected forests ect.

I mean more in the case of animals like some dogs. A purebred lab is often less intelligent than a mix or a mutt. One may be prettier but one is healthier in general

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I mean more in the case of animals like some dogs. A purebred lab is often less intelligent than a mix or a mutt. One may be prettier but one is healthier in general

I don't disagree entirely, but that is changing (I don't know how quickly) as well. There are all kinds of breeders of course, but the best ones today are working hard to turn things around and get the defects & weaknesses out of the breeds. Many are working on multiple lines. I've gone to the same breeder for my last 2 Labs. She has 3 different lines—confirmation, temperament (service & working), and sporting (retrieving & trials). Both of mine—thanks to the breeder's efforts—have had excellent eyes, hips, elbows, & knees (which in the past have been weaknesses from inbreeding). The one I have now is the smartest dog I've ever had—pure or mixed (I've mostly had mixed)—scary smart.

Unfortunately, there are still too many BYBs producing what you describe.

 

[saradoggy10]

I don't disagree entirely, but that is changing (I don't know how quickly) as well. There are all kinds of breeders of course, but the best ones today are working hard to turn things around and get the defects & weaknesses out of the breeds. Many are working on multiple lines. I've gone to the same breeder for my last 2 Labs. She has 3 different lines—confirmation, temperament (service & working), and sporting (retrieving & trials). Both of mine—thanks to the breeder's efforts—have had excellent eyes, hips, elbows, & knees (which in the past have been weaknesses from inbreeding). The one I have now is the smartest dog I've ever had—pure or mixed (I've mostly had mixed)—scary smart.

Unfortunately, there are still too many BYBs producing what you describe.

You are entirely correct. Now what would you think of someone breeding chameleons for beneficial traits as those while keeping them in the same species? Would that be morally acceptable?

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

You are entirely correct. Now what would you think of someone breeding chameleons for beneficial traits as those while keeping them in the same species? Would that be morally acceptable?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[saradoggy10]

The dog breeder you mentioned would breed purebreds through 3 lines for intelligence, retrieving, etc