Atticus and the new parsons enclosures.

[Twitchet]

 

[VerucaSalt]

She is a stunner!!

I can't wait to get into a larger sized Cham, our Jackson male looks like a flea in comparison to the big girls and boys I get to see loving life here

 

[chameleonneeds]

Hello Felix, oh that means a lot that he looks like your boy,
Yes they were in amongst the plants hiding away but you spotted them! Yes, still a way to go before being a grandma, I don’t know if I would as I don’t think there’s enough people here that would want a parsons here, if I do I’ll send you one! But you’ll have a bit of a wait.
Hoping you are well. Best wishes to you too.

For what reason would you not find buyers for the Parsons? Is it because they are overall too expensive for most people or is it because of lack of interest in chameleons? I am moving to the UK soon and I cannot wait to have the opportunity to keep and breed Parsons and whatever other species I can get my hands on.

Do you have an idea what the demand is like for bradypodions there? And what sort of subspecies have you seen readily available. I have seen setarois and thamnobates are sometimes available there.

 

[jamest0o0]

For what reason would you not find buyers for the Parsons? Is it because they are overall too expensive for most people or is it because of lack of interest in chameleons? I am moving to the UK soon and I cannot wait to have the opportunity to keep and breed Parsons and whatever other species I can get my hands on.

Do you have an idea what the demand is like for bradypodions there? And what sort of subspecies have you seen readily available. I have seen setarois and thamnobates are sometimes available there.

Chameleons in general are more upkeep/expenses than most people would like to deal with. On top of that parson's are pricey and require tons of space, water, and food. All those things I would imagine make it difficult to sell them.

 

[Twitchet]

Yes, exactly what James said, when mine were for sale the owner advertised them for months, my impression was that very few people here want parsons because of the housing and care issues, in fact one he couldnt sell here he took back to Hamm and sold it there because no one wanted it in this country, he couldnt sell it here, and they were not overpriced. So maybe one is possible to be sold after a while but I wouldn’t imagine it easy for me to be finding 30 responsible owners for a clutch and I’d rather give them to a caring owner than sell to the wrong person.
I have seen one or two other pairs for sale over the last few years and no one snapped them up for months either, I can’t imagine many people having the space to care for these, mine have, as you see, a propose made shed and sunrooms so it’s a large project. They may be slow but they still appreciate a larger enclosure than normal. Mine have two hours of showering everyday again as James points out the water issue is tricky for many, filling and emptying reservoirs every day.
I don’t know but again my impression is that demand for more unusual species isn’t high, I may be wrong but I don’t see many species other than panthers and veiled for sale like in other countries.

 

[Action Jackson]

Yes, exactly what James said, when mine were for sale the owner advertised them for months, my impression was that very few people here want parsons because of the housing and care issues, in fact one he couldnt sell here he took back to Hamm and sold it there because no one wanted it in this country, he couldnt sell it here, and they were not overpriced. So maybe one is possible to be sold after a while but I wouldn’t imagine it easy for me to be finding 30 responsible owners for a clutch and I’d rather give them to a caring owner than sell to the wrong person.
I have seen one or two other pairs for sale over the last few years and no one snapped them up for months either, I can’t imagine many people having the space to care for these, mine have, as you see, a propose made shed and sunrooms so it’s a large project. They may be slow but they still appreciate a larger enclosure than normal. Mine have two hours of showering everyday again as James points out the water issue is tricky for many, filling and emptying reservoirs every day.
I don’t know but again my impression is that demand for more unusual species isn’t high, I may be wrong but I don’t see many species other than panthers and veiled for sale like in other countries.

I admire you for wanting to keep and not necessarily breed parson’s. My opinion is that in the US the market for them is not very deep. There are many people that have acquired pretty large groups of Parsonii with the intention of breeding them so we’ll be seeing multiple clutches being produced yearly if these people are successful and stick with it. I can see Parsonii prices dropping quite a bit once more than one cluch a year per color phase is available. Breeding and housing Parsonii and Parsonii babies is not small task and often the majority of buyers only want males and breeders will end up with too many females.

 

[Twitchet]

Thank you Craig, my fear is seeing them advertised more frequently and being attractive and large they will attract attention, I researched as much as I could before I got mine but even then it was a huge shock to see how my life has changed because of them, the money spent and maybe I’m doing something wrong but I seem, willingly, to spend my day on and off devoted to caring for them.
I even wonder how I would find them a good home with adequate facilities if I had to sell them.
I saw Mellers for sale but even they didn’t sell easily because of their size and care.
I do fear that because of the price people will try and breed here for profit, I certainly would have to know I had possible homes but without doubt there are not enough people I think here that would want them, I don’t want to see them ending up in an online market place. I believe Hamm Germany would be the only place to sell numbers but I don’t want to breed them for money or for the sake of it, only if I knew I could ship to long term owners with parson experience and even that would be difficult, plus I would need vast facilities to raise babies properly.
I had the chance of the pair and it seemed wrong to split them up but I very much doubt if I would pair them unless I had a list of potential owners first, even if I could sort of rearing.

 

[chameleonneeds]

I guess the space needed for them would be a big concern for people in the UK given that rooms and housing are quite small there (based on my comparison from the housing here in South Africa).

Creating a list of confirmed buyers would be the best thing you could do. If you ever do ponder the thought, contact me on the forums and I can let you know whether you can add me to the list

 

[Remkon]

Being able to re-home the offspring is what mostly kept me from breeding any species.
It's fairly easy to lose your offspring for a few euro to a re-seller or for a bit more money on an expo.
But doing so requires you to accept that not all offspring may find a proper home... Still... if no one breeds a species people will resort to wild caught animals.

Europe has the issue that the markets/breeders are relatively small as they mostly don't cross the borders of their country and business is done in the native tongue which often isn't spoken well by surrounding countries.
You can't ship live animals by mail so you'd have to travel hundreds of kilometers to just looks at your possible purchase.
Then there's a lot of smaller countries where ground is expensive and houses are small so not much space is sacrificed for enclosures unless you have a spare room or are crazy enough to build a shed to house your reptiles...p)

 

[Action Jackson]

I got into working and breeding Parsonii not only because they are fascinating but because of the very limited success people were having breeding them. I was lucky and had success with my first pair and back then, 5 years ago or so and because they were rarely seen in captivity as CB there was a pretty good demand for them. Now that there are more imports available and the fact that many of the people that had been wanting then now have them, the demand is much less and as a result the price is half of what it was then. I’ve produced 65 c p Parsonii and another 50 c p Cristifer and I can say that finding homes for them takes a long time and often I have to hang onto some for a long time or forever.

The amount of work and material it takes to properly raise a clutch of Parsonii is substantial. I, as have other successful breeders like Garrett have invested many thousands of dollars in providing adequate housing for raising babies. It’s possible to start with smaller cages but they grow and the lack of demand means since we have to hang onto them for a long period of time, larger cages are needed. I choose to raise all the babies separately as do other experienced breeders because the babies do not like each other and it helps with their growth to have them separated. With successful breeding comes lots of babies and lots of expense.

I spend a crazy amount of time raising baby Parson’s, it’s like a full time job. It can be overwhelming at times but they are so amazing and it is so rewarding, I love it. I would not advise people to breed Parsonii but rather get one or two and just give them a beautiful home. As I said before, once there are multiple clutches available, Parson’s will be at panther prices or below. I have been offering mine at the lowest prices seen and they are super nice but I still haven’t sold all of my last clutch at the one year mark in spite of my large following on FB. Most potential buyers now are Panther people with no knowledge of Parsonii care or even the type of parson’s they want to buy and as prices continue to come down there will be many Parson’s going to poor homes and many will perish imo.

 

[Garrett]

You pretty much summed it up Craig, I'm experiencing this now with my latest clutch.
I think once Madagascar opened back up the "mystique" of the forbidden parsonii fruit demand was met very quickly. There's such a small pool of people interested in keeping these amazing chameleons it's difficult to find homes for them. I love working with this species but this year I think I'm going to refrain from breeding them just because the market isn't there. Most people only want a single male as a display\pet animal (I happen to think the females are just as beautiful and have better personalities.)
It's a huge amount of time, money, and dedication to raise these guys, I almost wish I didn't have 2 more clutches incubating currently...one about to hatch any day.
$$$ for an exotic pet lizard that has the reputation of being difficult to care for and needs a huge cage and water all over isn't very appealing to many folks, not sure why

Anyway, not to hijack this thread. I love this parsonii shed and outdoor enclosure patios!
These guys really do like to be out and patrol in open spaces with long branch paths so they are sure to be happy this summer in those setups.

 

[Twitchet]

Thank you to all and to both Craig and Garrett for the last messages, and no Garrett, certainly not hijacking, every single message goes towards sharing information and view points so I welcome them all and thank you.
In England we certainly don’t have the weather to keep avairy style houses outdoors so space is a limiting factor, having said that a few people will always say they don’t move move so don’t need a lot of room and to my horror I did see a photo of an adult parsons kept in an exoterra, I don’t even know how! certainly know mine, although slow, still range a lot, as Garrett said, and cover a lot of ground, it’s wonderful to see them out and exercising and exploring their houses so I’m very happy and looking forward to knowing they will have up until October outdoors in the day.
I have no intention to breed, unless I knew I could ship them to you guys but I’m just enjoying the experience of the individual animals and working with them does feel like an honour, to see the boy grow up and mature and hope that in some small part i helped that happen is wonderful. And yes, the female is nice and she is such a steady old thing, nothing phases her, she’s got a lot of character, slow, steady, seen it all before. The male is still shy, begins to feel stressed easily, a little punchy but I have been bitten yet, doesn’t handle change in routine at all well but the fact he fed from my fingers the other day means I’m getting there! It’s just taken me two years to get that far!
I found out something the other day, I now actually handle the male with gloves, his sharp claws and mega grip and feisty behaviour were tearing my skin and my hands are pretty small so it was becoming a struggle to get him to perch on one hand when I pick him up so I wear soft leather gloves and he’s so much more confident to climb onto my hands, it’s almost instant now and he is much easier to handle and it provides a steady stable and larger foot hold for him so he and I are much happier with the daily handling.
Thank you all.

 

[Action Jackson]

I agree about the females. There is something special about them and I really enjoy them.

 

[jamest0o0]

I love the look of the females personally. Only thing that made me hesitant about keeping a female was egg laying.

You guys keep Male/female separate I assume? I've seen a few people that house them together full time, but figured that was the exception.

 

[Action Jackson]

I love the look of the females personally. Only thing that made me hesitant about keeping a female was egg laying.

You guys keep Male/female separate I assume? I've seen a few people that house them together full time, but figured that was the exception.

I keep all mine separate and out of site with each other. I have females that are 4 years old that have not cycled eggs and have never seen a male. It is my opinion that if Parson’s are kept together you will get eggs, fertile or infertile and if the female is separate but can see the male she will likely cycle infertile eggs.

 

[Garrett]

I've had the same experience, females kept separate out of sight of a male have not produced eggs for me, some over 6 years old. Something about the social interaction with males triggers the process of ovulation
sometime before mating. The only females to ever produce eggs for me were either housed, or in visual sight of a male. Some did not actually mate with the male and produced infertile eggs anyway.
To confuse things further I've had females in sight of a male for years that have also not produced eggs so it could also have a proximity\territorial component.
If you want to keep a single female as a pet more than likely they will not produce eggs, which is pretty convenient

 

[jamest0o0]

Wow that's interesting! Did not know this. Thanks for sharing.

What are your guy's opinions on housing a Male and female together full time? Could this be done with parson's, or should it be avoided?

@Twitchet sorry tabitha, don't mean to stray from the topic here!

 

[Twitchet]

@jamest0o0 NO need to apologise, honestly, it’s all for the good of everyone and I’m here to learn so the more topics and subtopics the better as far as I’m concerned!

Very interesting, My female can’t see the male and she is now, uh oh bad Mother can’t quite remember, I think she is 6 and she had a scan late last year with no eggs.