Baby panther from private, not breeder

[SerpeRoma]

Hey everyone I'm planning on getting a panther chameleon and I found on OfferUp someone selling babies for $100, not a breeder, just a keeper.. I asked some pictures since the one she posted looked like a very young one, according to the description they hatched on June, wanted to have some opinions on the age and if it's a good idea to get one from a keeper.

This is what she sent me:

 

[salty dog]

thats too small to sell...I would not sell them that small!!! it probably would not survive shipping....besides that small it's almost impossible to sex...

 

[ERKleRose]

They're too small, and if she's selling them on a selling app for such a small amount of money, it's definitely a huge red flag, too.

 

[SerpeRoma]

thats too small to sell...I would not sell them that small!!! it probably would not survive shipping....besides that small it's almost impossible to sex...

There would be no shipping, I'm gonna go see them tomorrow, mostly because I want to check how they're kept and what they're eating.. anyone has a guess on the age?

 

[suprdude]

I strongly discourage getting this one so young, especially for $100. For a comparison, here is a reputable reptile store in Berkeley that is selling this juvenile for $150: https://eastbayvivarium.com/collections/chameleons/products/veiled-chameleon

 

[summerseeking]

June to now would make them a bit over a month old. That's looks reasonable to me. What locale are they?

 

[SerpeRoma]

June to now would make them a bit over a month old. That's looks reasonable to me. What locale are they?

Ambilobe according to the seller

 

[SerpeRoma]

I strongly discourage getting this one so young, especially for $100. For a comparison, here is a reputable reptile store in Berkeley that is selling this juvenile for $150: https://eastbayvivarium.com/collections/chameleons/products/veiled-chameleon

I know the price is too low, thought maybe she realized that feeding babies is very expensive (?) and wants to give 'em away (?) I'll ask a couple questions tomorrow when I go see them anyway.. the link you posted sells veiled for $150 and recommends fake plants and a water dish?! That sounds pretty wrong based on my research, considering that I already own a veiled and it's a plant-eater.. anyway, my first choice would be kammerflage kreations or framschams, but I can't stop looking around for good deals or rescues. Thanks for the suggestion though, I appreciate it!

 

[summerseeking]

I know the price is too low, thought maybe she realized that feeding babies is very expensive (?) and wants to give 'em away (?) I'll ask a couple questions tomorrow when I go see them anyway.. the link you posted sells veiled for $150 and recommends fake plants and a water dish?! That sounds pretty wrong based on my research, considering that I already own a veiled and it's a plant-eater.. anyway, my first choice would be kammerflage kreations or framschams, but I can't stop looking around for good deals or rescues. Thanks for the suggestion though, I appreciate it!

I think that's completely possible. She possibly underestimated how hard babies are and she can't hand them. Selling on offer-up doesn't sound like she had a clear plan to sell them in the first place. I say no harm in going and figuring out what's the deal. The price point, age, offer-up are all suspect but who knows. You got me 75% interested in seeing them . Did she post the sire?

 

[SerpeRoma]

I think that's completely possible. She possibly underestimated how hard babies are and she can't hand them. Selling on offer-up doesn't sound like she had a clear plan to sell them in the first place. I say no harm in going and figuring out what's the deal. The price point, age, offer-up are all suspect but who knows. You got me 75% interested in seeing them . Did she post the sire?

Yeah, this is it, she also posted the sire's dam, but now that I went to take a screenshot I've seen she raised the price to $200

 

[summerseeking]

Yeah, this is it, she also posted the sire's dam, but now that I went to take a screenshot I've seen she raised the price to $200

I know it is weird, but raising the price makes it a little less suspect

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I'd walk away. Too many things can go wrong those first 3 months.
You get what you pay for. Caveat Emptor.

 

[CasqueAbove]

If you aren’t shipping and can physically go see them and how they are raised. I would, assuming things look good when you get there. Yes it is young but somebody has to raise it. You seem to have some knowledge and experience so there’s no reason it can’t be you. Yes that young is a bigger risk but $100. And honestly I would buy one from any place that I can verify the care. Normally we have to ship so definitely older but being able to pick it up means it will only change cages one time. So there are advantages.

 

[salty dog]

if you know what you're doing, and have the viv all set up and food situated... picking it up would probably be ok...still at that age is very hard to sex..... I have bean beetles and fruit fly cultures that I keep for food and get pinhead or 1 week crickets is what I feed

 

[JacksJill]

Ask a ton of questions about how they were raised, how they were supplemented, were the parents fecals checked. etc

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Yes it is young but somebody has to raise it.

Shouldn't that be the person(s) who hatched it, and why aren't they?
What's the reason for selling them so young (besides this "BYB†" being in way over their head)?

† BackYard Breeder (an unprofessional breeder)

Yes it is young but somebody has to raise it. You seem to have some knowledge and experience so there’s no reason it can’t be you.

Those sound like some of the same rationales for buying baby chams from Pet—.

Yes that young is a bigger risk but $100.

It's $200 now. Why the sudden 100% increase? Another red flag(?)

One of the things that can go wrong in those first 3 months* that may not show up before that age is "failure to thrive". Another—as salty dog pointed out—is difficulty of sexing correctly. There are more. The $100 or $200 that might be saved now could easily be made up for—or surpassed (and then some)—in avoidable vet bills.

Ultimately, OP will make their own decision. My hope is that it will be a thoughtful informed decision made with a cool head and not a hurried emotional decision based on cuteness, $aving a few $, pressure tactics, etc.

With Positivity in mind, some things to look for: (from the Resources Section):

Signs of a healthy chameleon:

• A healthy chameleon should be active in its environment and be standing up rather than laying on its perch.
• The chameleon should be able to move about the cage with good balance without falling or stumbling.
• The eyes should be fully open at all times and actively looking around to monitor its surroundings.
• The arm and leg bones should all be straight, toes should all be intact and the chameleon should have a strong grip.
• Skin should have nice vibrant coloration all over the body and all the spines on the back should be present.
• Patches of shedding skin are normal if present. The skin is shed periodically depending on age and growth rate.
• The tail should be able to grasp branches and curl up smoothly.

Symptoms of an unhealthy chameleon:

• Whole Body or Behavioral
• Head & Neck
• Legs & Feet
• Tail & Vent

Purchasing A Chameleon (has more on what to look for/avoid)

Rescuing From Pet Stores [Wherever]​

Unfortunately the unique needs of chameleons are still often overlooked by pet stores and many chameleons in pet stores are in poor conditions with caging being inadequate or are already showing signs of illness. The first response of the compassionate customer is always "I should rescue it from these terrible conditions!" This may surprise you, but it is actually recommended to not purchase these animals in poor conditions. We all want to save an animal in need, but to the pet store that chameleon is just another product that needs to be sold for profit, and it's all about the numbers. If you purchase that chameleon to save it the pet store sees that as no more than a successful sale, and they will quickly replace it with a new chameleon to sell in the place you opened up. Nothing will encourage them to improve conditions since they can sell them to you without investing in proper care. However, if that chameleon does not sell then the store does not find that profitable and will stop stocking chameleons in those terrible conditions. It is much better to spend your money supporting responsible breeders or even other stores that put in the effort to make sure they have healthy animals in good conditions.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/purchasing/

*I was tired last night when I wrote previous post—my bad. Couldn't think of the term at the time.

 

[summerseeking]

Please let us know how it went.

 

[SerpeRoma]

So I went there, she had 2 cages outside and a branch, the male was on the branch, in one cage she had 2 females together, in the other there were 12 babies, 1/2 inch long, she said that the price is still $100 for me, but she got many offers so raised the price, I've asked a lot of questions, it sounded like she knew a thing or two about chams, but I was not impressed about the way she was keeping them, she also mentioned about her kids always playing with the male and about him enjoying it the sir was looking good colors wise, but the casque was swollen, the dams were both black with pink spots, looked both gravid to me, one was very fat and she said that was the mother of the babies (looked like full of eggs to me)
Let me know what you guys think, these are all the pictures that I took

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Let me know what you guys think, these are all the pictures that I took

Nothing's changed from my POV except a couple/few more warning flags.
Glad you didn't come back with one (impulse purchase).
Sleep on it.

 

[ERKleRose]

I wouldn't buy from her, especially with the conditions they live in