Baby Parsons

[reyesjoshuacruz]

outside of the source of the animals ( which of course is not legal due to the ban, which also ensured the long term slow in comparrison trickle of poached animals compared to when they werent banned)

outside of the source of the animals, funding and legal issues, you have the animals, and man trying to learn how to successfully breed the animal.

the end result is the same

no one can argue the captive care of these animals isnt still in its infancy. There are things to be learned, there will always be.


but hey lets wait till the animals almost extinct before we trying to learn how to breed them. insted of farming and one day producing an alternative to WC that would ultimately satisfy all but the poachers........

 

[spatulars]

I hope you will breed those Oxyrhinum well Champhibians.

One problem is that the parsonii are being sold over the internet. In order to initiate a boycott on those hatchlings, concerned chameleon keepers would need to be able to reach every single potential buyer of those guys, and that's absolutely impossible on the wide web. In addition, while for-profit organizations may have given up on the parsonii, I believe a generously equipped non-profit organization could do the trick. With enough land, money, and expert contribution, the parsonii could be bred and saved in the US immediately through manual labor rather than just hoping that madagascar will get better gradually. Offspring could be recycled in the program or sold to concerned and knowledgeable keepers only, the proceeds returning to the parsonii program. They could sell tshirts and get donations, I don't know. I know nothing about how to start a conservation breeding program. A zoo might be able to do it, if you ignore the fact that many zoos seem incapable of making appropriate chameleon habitats. It seems pretty dismal when the only actions being condoned are insignificant efforts to help madagascar and weak, incomplete boycotts of smuggled clutches.

 

[Chameleon Company]

so outside of habitat conservation, what else saves a species?
can any disagree that a vital part of saving a species ( esp endangered ones ) is establishing captive breeding programs?

do we have to start posting examples of species saved in a very large part if not soley by captive breeding programs?

With all due respect, hobbyists buying animals of illegal origin does not constitute "captive breeding programs". And YES, I will absolutely disagree with your premise that captive-breeding-programs are a vital part of saving a species, as they have been alluded to in this thread. Every example noted or implied in this thread so far is of a hobbyist, knowledgeable or otherwise, trying to successfully reproduce animals of illegal origins. CITES has a mechanism in place now to approve the legal collection of these animals if anyone thinks they qualify. It sure isn't for hobbyist breeding though. If CITES and other organizations decide to get something going, they will. But it sure as heck won't include the support of illegal trade. And with all due respect to these arguments, CITES etc are more than capable of making that decision when necessary. Parsonii are nowhere near extinction, so maybe we can stop with the premise that CITES isn't on the ball, and something extra-legal needs to be supported. How many animals on our own Endangered Species List have been given status for officially sanctioned "Captive Breeding Programs"?

For the record, habitat conservation AND a halt to illegal collecting/hunting are vital to the preservation of a dwindling species, and come long before captive breeding programs. Needs for improvement in one area are not an excuse to disregard applicable laws in the other.

There is also a big distance between an "organized boycott", which will not be very effective because you cannot get the Asia market to cooperate, and whether or not each of us is capable of making the ethical decision to not buy one, and discourage others from doing likewise. The former is well beyond the reach of this forum and its members. The latter is not.

 

[TylerStewart]

Honest question: Can anyone name an example of a species that was saved by hobbyists?

Silkworms LOL...

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

HAHA... http://animals.jrank.org/pages/2519/Butterflies-Skippers-Moths-Lepidoptera-SILKWORM-Bombyx-mori-SPECIES-ACCOUNTS.html

check out habitat

-chris

ps Tyler this is a chameleon forum...no turtle guys allowed! LOL

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

the term was used loosely originally and was by me. im not stating a hobbyist will have any impact, who and what are we calling a hobbyist?

i could go through this thread and drop all the names of all the american, european keepers that at one point or another were able to breed or hatch a parsonii, but i didnt. i didnt think i needed to. no animal has been saved by hobbyist which is why i stated i didnt think that was an honest question. considering everyone already knew the answer, none. at one point the keepers that got the closest to breeding didnt know anything of proper care. but i guess something makes them better than someone that hasnt succeeded yet, or doesnt know anything

again ill have to start being black and white i guess, but i dont think hobbyist will "crack the code". scientist will.

but it will happen, scientist to me dont have to have an education. this is obvious because at one point no one knew anything of science and the laws that govern everything. there ARE scientists now, and before they knew nothing the second they started to wonder and experiment they became scientist. hobbyisy, scientist, you make the distinction. i dont feel i can but im done here, all i have to go on is everything i read being discussed by the keepers of the time on the adcham listsrv from the first post till now. i apparently know nothing am naive. cites is wonderful, and does not fall victim to human corruption and personal agendas just like every other human ran organization of power.

my lurking adcham cant even come close to years in the hobby. and i accept that. i know nothing, and in the big picture, neither do any of us
i realize im in over my head and leave it at that, i should have shut up a long time ago

 

[Chameleon Company]

Don't be so hard on yourself. If and when CITES and/or Mada decided to have a dedicated captive breeding program, it would most likey be done in Mada, and would comprise a large area specifically designated for parsonii. Whether large outdoor pens, or some other configuration, it would not be hobbyists with a room, greenhouse, or backyard cages.

Or they would do it elsewhere. Just as jacksonii have thrived in Hawaii, veileds are now established in parts of Florida. It stands to reason that parsonii could also find a habitat outside of Madagascar. It might not be free in the wild, but possibilities abound.

The species isn't even close to being there yet. No by any stretch of the imagination. If they commanded even 1/10th of the price, you'd see more Mada species being funneled through Indo. And we'd be debating the same things, just different species filling in the blanks.

 

[Kent67]

Is Ken still working with parsons today???

He is not. Due to various reasons he gave his collection to Ed and Liddy Kammer.

 

[Kent67]

Reyesjoshuacruz,

I think you may have been slightly misinformed about what Ardi Abate has done concerning protecting Parson's chameleons. Ardi had absolutely nothing to do with the CITES import restrictions. In fact, when it happened, she was just as bummed out about it as the rest of us. It was only after running the Chameleon information Network, spending all of her waking hours every day counseling the "cham killers" that her opinion on keeping chameleons in captivity changed. As for Parson's specifically, she did propose moving them from Appendix II to Appendix I.

As for Madagascar, there is habitat left for Parson's, but it does need to be protected. Heck, they've been found living in coffee groves even. Madagascar has changed tremendously over the last few years as a result of the animated film of the same name. Tourism is getting bigger and bigger there and rest assured, the Malagasy are not misunderstanding what people are coming to see.

 

[TylerStewart]

ps Tyler this is a chameleon forum...no turtle guys allowed! LOL

That would be tortoise, and Brad said I could still hang out if I sponsored the forums again, so there.

 

[Kent67]

Just remembered something else important:

The CITES ban was supposed to be temporary, pending the results of population impact studies. There's clearly tons of potential income in the exporting of Calumma, as well as all the other restricted Furcifer and Brookesia, species. Why have none of the exporters tried to do it in the last 13 years? Might it be because they know the outcome won't support their side? Hmmmm.

To repeat what I've said in several other threads, I still think a small quota of many of the currently restricted species from Madagascar would be sustainable for wild populations. I had Parson's when they were legal. They are quite majestic, but rather boring and inactive compared to a lot of cham species. To me, it seems like the current Parson's craze is really more about having a "status symbol" than anything else. If you were around back when there were as many Parson's as panther chameleons in the US, you'd know how naive it really is to think that if you get one or two that you're going to have success breeding them. They are not veileds. They are not panthers. There have been no breakthroughs in getting them to breed, lay eggs on their own, and successfully incubate.

Even if there was a small quota of Parson's allowed out each year, how could you ethically justify removing them from the wild where they will most likely reproduce successfully and move them into captivity where they almost certainly will NOT? Saving the species? LOL, right.

 

[Vibrant Chameleons]

Even if there was a small quota of Parson's allowed out each year, how could you ethically justify removing them from the wild where they will most likely reproduce successfully and move them into captivity where they almost certainly will NOT? Saving the species? LOL, right.

I totally agree with this. As nice as it would be to own a few Parsons to try and breed them, the odds are totally against you from day one. Let them recover naturally in the wild over time. Maybe by 2025, they will be able to put a strict quota on them each year, and still have a thriving Parsonii world in Madagascar.

 

[SSimsswiSS]

To me, it seems like the current Parson's craze is really more about having a "status symbol" than anything else. If you were around back when there were as many Parson's as panther chameleons in the US, you'd know how naive it really is to think that if you get one or two that you're going to have success breeding them. They are not veileds. They are not panthers. There have been no breakthroughs in getting them to breed, lay eggs on their own, and successfully incubate.

This Is why I try. Not everybody takes the easy road in life. You need a group. You need time, and long term commitment. When I decided to try to figure these guys out, I went in with a ten year plan. Now I know I will be spending the rest of my life, to do it right. O' to have twenty years of my life back, to live and study them in there native land. Boy, I guess I took the wrong day off away from forums, took me a hour to wade through this heavy thread.

 

[OldChamKeeper]

Here's my .02 and I already stated I wouldn't be buying one of these despite some of you knowing me, my past with Parson's, and my pursuit of one day again owning one.


Any species of cham is somewhat delicate. Babies of any species are more so. I recently had one of the worst experiences I've ever had in 30+ years of keeping herps. My first little CH Melleri bit the dust on me in under a week. Now I was a little out of practice in keeping hatchilings but I'm not a novice. After careful conversations and some evaluations I killed my little fellow with , well, too much kindness and attention. Mike over at FLChams has been one of the most kind and helpful people I've come across in all the years of this hobby. That huge-elaborate-wonderful- ultra modern habitat I have was part of the problem. Currently the new little dragon is thriving in a "ghetto" habitat consisting of a 5 gal bucket with plastic plants and a 5.0 linear bulb on top.

The point of sharing my personal little shame?

For two thousand dollars why would anyone even consider purchasing an imported baby Parsonii? Despite experience, knowledge, dedication and resources the best among us will have no real success with one of these at this very young age if they do have some of the more difficult parasites to treat from Indo. From the lessons we learned back in the late 80's, for those of us who were there, we already know that juvs and adults of this species have a number of problems when imported and they proved difficult to treat even with the best Vets. The one poster who said they got to see these up close at a show made some solid observations and personally as an experienced Parsonii keeper I know enough to steer away from these no matter how much I'd like to try and save them.

It really really sucks to say this but if the importer loses their shirt on these dying then they might not do it a second time.

I paid $200 for one of Mike's beautiful CH Melleri. The quality of the animal shows. What are you getting for 2K?

 

[Eric Adrignola]

I agree - an order of magnitude LESS for a better lizard. Melleri are nice, and in my opinion, more fun than parsonii. I've not owned parsonii, but I've cared for them, and worked with them. I find them to be slightly more interesting than bonsai most of the time. Beautiful and nice, but overall, boring.

Melleri, while not as huge, have the best social behavior and personality out of any reptile I've worked with. I've found them to be downright easy to work with. My first, a 3 month C.B from Kristina (yeah, of course it's easy when you get 3 month old quality animals!). The ONLY problem Ardi's had in over 3 years is a severe burn on his back - which was my fault. I was away for 3 weeks, during the winter. I didn't realize that the bulb was too hot. He's never had a hunger strike, odd behavior, nothing weird at all.

He's my show lizard - I use him in lectures, hold him up in front of a hundred screaming kids and he'll eat from their hands without hesitation.

I can see why people want parsonii. Some of it in some situations is a "status" thing. Personally, I prefer melleri - I always have.

 

[Chuck G]

Herc tired of talky talk. Feed Herc big bugs.
Smart people make Herc head hurt.
Herc make poopy now.

 

[Ryan Jarosek]

Herc tired of talky talk. Feed Herc big bugs.
Smart people make Herc head hurt.
Herc make poopy now.

What a great way to start a Friday... My sides hurt I was laughing at this so hard.

Thanks Chuck G

 

[Chuck G]

Herc casual on Friday!

 

[reyesjoshuacruz]

chuck how to do ever manage to leave your house with them there?

 

[Chuck G]

chuck how to do ever manage to leave your house with them there?

I don't! They are at my business,which I am,at least 12 hours a day.