Bad Boy, Bad Boy, Whatcha Gonna Do?

[MissLissa]

So, as I have mentioned earlier, my young male panther chameleon "Vladislav" really, really hates my roommate. I mean, this lizard has it out for her. It's gotten a lot worse recently, though.

Today he was hanging out in his cage while my roommate and I watched a movie. I had left his door open, so he could climb out onto his freerange if he wanted. Well, he did want. Then he wanted to climb down off the freerange and clamber up onto the couch. Then he proceeded to puff himself right up, march up one side of me and down the other, and attempted to take a big chunk out of my poor roommate on the other side.

Now, my roommate is a powderpuff of a person; a real sweetheart with an honest love for animals. She sneaks him waxworms (his most favourite treat) when I am not paying enough attention. He does take them from her, but he is fired up the whole time. He disliked her from Day 1, as I have mentioned before, but this is a whole new world of dislike. I actually had to grab him away from her and lock him in his cage because he was on Mission: Kill-possible and as soon as I set him down he was back trying to get at her. She never handles him, other than maybe giving him a waxworm now and then. My neighbor handles him more, and he's fine with her.

Has anyone experienced something like this before? He is usually a very levelheaded guy. He has no problems with anyone else he's happened to meet. I think it really hurts her feelings that he was so fearful, and now seemingly aggressive, towards her.

Okay, okay, so I am an animal behaviour nerd and I honestly do understand that the lizard doesn't actually have it out for her, and that this entire post is grossly anthropomorphic. Still. He straight up hunted her.

 

[Lathis]

It's probably not her, maybe something about her... Does she wear glasses? Always wear stripes or a lot of red or bright colors?

 

[MissLissa]

No, I wear glasses

She is kind of... jerky. She moves her hands a lot, and quickly. She is kind of long-limbed and gawky and a bit spastic. Maybe that's setting him off.

 

[JaxyGirl]

Yup I'm sure he just doesn't like her. It's not her fault. Lizards can recognize people. They know who feeds them and I'm sure...for whatever reason... They know who they don't Like and there are some people...for reasons that we just can't understand..they will behave aggressively toward. Other animals will behave the same way towards people they don't like. Chams are a lot smarter then we give them credit for! The ones they free range really develop a personality and I feel because they are able to interact with their owners a lot more we see another side of them that we wouldn't if they were kept in a cage 24/7.

 

[MissLissa]

Heh, I don't think Vladislav suffers from a deficit of personality. More like the other way around!

 

[JaxyGirl]

Heh, I don't think Vladislav suffers from a deficit of personality. More like the other way around!

I was trying to say that chams that are allowed to free range more, such as your Cham, develop more of a personality, which is really great! They kinda become their own Cham with likes and dislikes and aren't afraid to express themselves..Lol! I think they're happier all around and it builds confidence. Yours abviously knows he likes you and doesn't like your roommate but I guess that's his choice My 6 month male Panther free ranges 100% and his personality is really starting to show. He definitely recognizes people. You can tell what he likes and dislikes. He gets a lot of interaction with us, hand feeding, scratches on his chin or side, a little tug on his tail when I walk by. He doesnt mind at all. I almost find my chams to be almost cat like..they want to interact when they want to... but if they want to be left alone you know it. They're such cool creatures!

 

[jajeanpierre]

That's really unusual behavior. He's so young.

I've not seen unprovoked aggression in a chameleon, only defensive behaviors with aggression to a person only being in response to a person instigating contact. They are a creature that tries to avoid detection and hide, using aggressive behaviors as a last resort.

I've seen aggression surrounding breeding and have seen that aggression transferred to other objects.

My first thought was some sort of phobia where all the emotion of a fearful event becomes transferred to something unrelated to the fearful event, so the object/colour triggers the fear response. I'm not explaining it well this morning but you know what I am talking about.

But even if that was what was happening, I would expect a chameleon, especially a young chameleon, to retreat away from this fearful thing not approach. He's too young for there to be any hormonal component if that is ever much of an issue with chameleons.

You need to do an ABC analysis and change the antecedants to find out what the trigger really is. As you know, sometimes what you/we think is happening really isn't, and an ABC analysis is the only way to prove the hypothesis anyway.

I'm really interested to hear what you find.

 

[Wowbango]

I have a friend they came over to my house with his bulldog about a week after I got my chameleon to check him out. The bulldog barked at Nigel and he got all puffed up. That person cannot come over because the minute Nigel sees her, he associates her with the bulldog and puffs up. It's incredible to me that this happened almost 4 months ago and he clearly remembers who it was that brought the bulldog. Maybe something happened that he remembers?

 

[Matteo]

time to get a new roomie! Maybe he knows something you don't!

 

[MissLissa]

Yeah, I'm working on the ABC analysis, testing out a few things like distance to threshold, etc. I wanted to know if anyone had experience with this before- I've never seen anything like it with the veilds and jacksons I've worked with. The closest I've seen with reptiles is a green anaconda that took a deep dislike to a coworker of mine after we had to restrain her for some xrays. We were able to deal with that and now the green monster is fine with everyone (well, as much as an anaconda is fine with anyone). I do suspect a transference, for sure; I just need to come up with a plan.

Oh, no, he definitely has serious hormones going on: I found his first sperm plug the day before this all occurred. He will be 6 months of age on October 7.

It started the very first day I got him; he was chilling out in his new cage, had a drink, ate some crickets. She came in very slowly to see him, and he freaked right out and almost fell off his perch. Since then, she is no bueno as far as he is concerned. I wasn't really worried about it, since she really has nothing to do with him other than giving him the odd treat, and he can't see her 99% of the time anyways. But I will not have her being hunted down by a pissed off lizard in her own home. It's not fair to her, or to him.

 

[junglefries]

My gals and gals aren't big on my white tshirts I insist on wearing. Can't help it, jcpenny makes some comfortable 60% cotton 40% polyester tshirts. They notice me sneaking up from across the room. They don't mind my cocker spaniel though, who is fascinated with the babies. Excuse me, starving for the babies. I guess he thinks 'no woodcocks, fine I'll just eat chameleons'. He is just simply cocker spaniel typical jealous. As with my son, ALL the pets go running away! freakin Dennis the Menace, he is!

 

[giesle]

She is kind of long-limbed and gawky and a bit spastic.

Well, I hope your roommate doesn't read that you posted that in a public forum. haha. I'm sure she knows how she is. I've taken several good photos of both of my current chams and another on my 6 year old Labrador and they were as mellow as can be around and on him. I got another Lab puppy back in January when she was 6 weeks old and both of them still puff and fire up when they see her. I know it's because she is somewhat like your roommate. She just moves so quickly. Even if they liked her I would never let them near her, just because she is always moving so quickly she would eventually harm one. We'll see how she is in about 5 years.

 

[jaredmills01]

How do you delete posts

 

[MissLissa]

Well, I've come up with a plan! No more free rides, Mr Vladislav Huffypants. This chameleon lady means business!

Because I will probably never really know WHY he reacts to my roommate the way he does, I'm kind of ignoring that for now and just dealing with HOW he reacts to her. I don't really care if the basis of his behaviour is fear or aggression or hormones- I'm going to treat them all like one and the same. Basically, my plan is to make him like her, by making her the bearer of all things amazing and awesome.

Things I discovered this week:

1. He fires up within seconds of seeing her, from anywhere in the apartment, no matter how far away she can get (in my apartment, that's only about 40 feet or so), so there is pretty much no way to keep him under threshold.

2. If I am not in the room, he starts to puff up and starts to move away from her when she approaches to about 3-4 feet (note: convenient feeding range).

3. If I am in the room, he starts to display much sooner; usually about 6-7 feet away or so, and instead of moving away from her, he starts moving towards her, increasing his display in accordance to how close he has come (note: this is the same distance he was from her on the couch initially during the previous incident). It's totally bizarre. But whatever; the reason why he does that is unimportant, only that he does.

3. If I am not in the room, and she makes sure he sees the feeder item she has, he will allow her to approach while firing up, but not puffing up, and will often take the food item from her. He refused the BSFL, but she offered them last so his motivation may have dropped as he'd already eaten a few food items by that point. So far his motivation for food seems to be waxworms > silkworms > BSFL > hornworms > crickets > kingworms > superworms > stick bugs > butterworms, which we will use to monitor his progress and manage his motivation.

4. If I am in the room, he is too busy huffing and hissing at her for him to take a food item from her. I think she is too close at that point, and his motivation for driving her away is higher than his motivation for eating the food.

Current Daily Routine for Vladislav:
7:15 am: Vladislav's lights get turned on
7:30 am: His daily staple feeders- crickets or superworms, mostly- get dusted and put in his feeding tub for him to pick at during the day, and his dripper is refilled. I leave for work.
9:00am: Holly leaves for work
9:30am: 5 minute automatic misting
12:30am: I come home for lunch from work, and offer him his alternate food ration for the day (BSFL, silkworms, hornworms, stick bugs, whatever) and a syringe of water.
2:30pm: 10 minute automatic misting
4:30pm: I get home from work
5:30pm: Vladislav get a handmisting session, or his weekly shower
6:00pm: My roommate gets home from work
7:00pm-8:00pm: Vladislav's lights get turned off and he goes to bed


Our new changes, starting today:
7:15 am: Vladislav's lights get turned on
7:30 am: I leave for work.
8:30: Holly offers Vladislav BSFL, then silkworms, then waxworms from the tongs in the way I showed her. He gets to eat as much as he will like (for now!). As he gets full, she will move from the less attractive food item to the ones he likes better to hopefully keep his attention longer. She will then record what and how much he ate.
9:00am: Holly leaves for work
9:30am: 5 minute automatic misting
12:30am: I come home for lunch from work, and dust his staple foods and put them in his tub feeder, and offer a short handmisting session.
3:30pm: 10 minute automatic misting
4:30pm: I get home from work
5:30pm: Vladislav get a handmisting session, or his weekly shower
6:00pm: My roommate gets home from work
7:00pm-8:00pm: Vladislav's lights get turned off and he goes to bed

I'm thinking that by leaving him a bit hungrier in the morning, and having Holly offer his favourite foods every day, he will start to pair her with wonderful awesomeness, and obviously hunting down and biting wonderful awesomeness doesn't make any sense so hopefully we can stop this hunting behaviour and replace it with eating tasty treats from tongs instead. However, I don't want to leave him hungry for too long (he is still a growing boy) so I will give him his regular food when I get home at noonish. Also, this way if Holly sleeps in late, doesn't have time to feed him, of if he flatly refuses to take breakfast from her, then at least he will have something in his belly at some point during the day. I went over (again) with Holly How To Feed A Chameleon and also How To Move Around a Chameleon and watched her feed him today, and it went pretty well. He took three waxworms and two silkworms from her, though he was still pretty fired up about it.

He is just shy of 6 months old, so I'm not too worried about him eating twice a day and getting fat, since he is still growing and if he eats a ton for her in the morning, I will just give him less feeders in the afternoon. Eventually I'd like to get rid of the afternoon feedings entirely, as I was only using them for earning his trust initially, but I'd rather keep them for now as Holly is honestly kind of a flutterhead and I worry that she will forget to feed him at all. Which is also why she is not in charge of his misting sessions, which he loves.

Thoughts on the plan? Suggestions?

 

[jajeanpierre]

You have a very patient roommate! Your plan sounds great. Just to be clear--he will hand feed from her with tongs? It's okay for him to have to work for his food. It becomes his choice and he has total control of his hunger.

Can she hand feed him without the tongs? That would be my next step.

I'm really interested in your observations. I had wanted to target train one of mine but I ended up buying a group of wild caughts and I just haven't had the time.

 

[absolutbill]

I'm really interested in your progress, and have to applaud your (and your roommate's) dedication to making a better environment for all involved. My last veiled was quite cage aggressive, but my husband was the person primarily feeding him. Even being fed by Billy 3-4 times a week for about 3 1/2 years he still hated my husband with a passion. My husband is a teddy bear, wouldn't dream of hurting my animals, and always moved slowly around my chams. My panther loves him to death, but that veiled just hated him, no matter what he was wearing. To me, some chams are just like that, but it does speak well for free-ranging. Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[MissLissa]

jajeanpierre: my roommate is afraid of bugs! She will not touch anything but waxworms, for whatever reason, so the tongs were a compromise. She will handfeed him from the tongs, but she made it very clear that the only thing she is willing to actually touch is waxworms. He will handfeed from the long tongs for her but is much less willing to take items from her fingers (well, waxworms, anyways since that's all she will handle) or from my short 6" tongs that I use for my skink. He will take one or two waxworms from her fingers, but will take 5-6 items from the tongs with her. I decided to trade off having her a farther distance away for an opportunity for more repetitions to hopefully build his confidence in her

The plan went really well today; he took 4 BSFL, 2 smallish silkworms, and 3 waxworms from her! She said he was still pretty fired up about it, but he did take them and didn't hiss or puff up. So I'm taking it as a win

 

[jajeanpierre]

jajeanpierre: my roommate is afraid of bugs! She will not touch anything but waxworms, for whatever reason, so the tongs were a compromise. She will handfeed him from the tongs, but she made it very clear that the only thing she is willing to actually touch is waxworms. He will handfeed from the long tongs for her but is much less willing to take items from her fingers (well, waxworms, anyways since that's all she will handle) or from my short 6" tongs that I use for my skink. He will take one or two waxworms from her fingers, but will take 5-6 items from the tongs with her. I decided to trade off having her a farther distance away for an opportunity for more repetitions to hopefully build his confidence in her

The plan went really well today; he took 4 BSFL, 2 smallish silkworms, and 3 waxworms from her! She said he was still pretty fired up about it, but he did take them and didn't hiss or puff up. So I'm taking it as a win

She might be less grossed out by silk worms. They are white, soft and velvety. I am just thinking that the closer he has to get to her the better.

The adult wild caught quad I bought in February used to dive deep into her bushes--and I mean a panic dive--whenever I was in sight. Then I had to medicate the heck out of her (five days in a row, repeated at ten-day intervals) so she had a really good reason to detest me. She is getting better, mostly holding her ground now or only slowly going deep into her bushes. She'll take green bugs from my hand. Green seems to be the most stimulating coloured inscect I've found for them.

Hatching silkworms is really easy. They are my favourite feeder.

Have you thought about maybe target training him? You could then move him around in her proximity. I know zoos train a lot of their big reptiles for vet work--you can't exactly manhandle a 200 pound tortoise. I've meant to try but I just don't have the time at the moment. Plus I'm such a lazy trainer and spoiled by how quickly a parrot can generalize a concept. Even dogs are incredibly slow to learn compared with a parrot.

Good luck. Keep us posted. I'm really interested in what you do and how many reps it takes. There aren't many on this list with the background in the science of applied animal behavior who are willing to take the time and apply it to a chameleon.

 

[MissLissa]

I hadn't thought of target training him, but I love the idea! I've target trained monitors, tortoises, turtles, beardeds, geckos, skinks, even a bullsnake and a Mexican black kingsnake! Our tortoises and turtles all participate in voluntary beak and nail trims, too. I don't know why it didn't occur to me to do it with him. I think I'm going to work on him being less stressed with having both me and her in the same room together first, then work on seeing what I can get him to do, target-training wise.

Holly thinks the silkworms are disgusting; they're his second favourite feeder, but she will only touch them with the tongs. I'm hoping that exposure therapy will work for her, too! Heh. She is being a really good sport about all this, too.

 

[MissLissa]

We have some success!

So Holly has been doing great, working with Vladislav. Today- for the first time- I was able to stand right beside her while he took waxworms from her fingers. I'm so proud of both of them! He also has entirely stopped "hunting" her from his free range tree- he will chill there, and she can chill on the couch. He still gets pretty upset if she gets too close to him while he is in his tree, but we are working on that, too, and have seen a bit of improvement already.

I am really impressed with how fast he "gets" it- I thought it would take him much longer than this to make the connection that Holly bring yummy delicious things. Nope. I was wrong. We were able to advance pretty quickly: not as quickly as I'm used to- I train mostly parrots and corvids, and almost nothing adapts behaviour as fast as they do- but pretty respectable progress in any case.

I don't have any pics yet, because he's not a fan of cameras and phones and I thought it would be a bit much to ask him to be such a good boy for Holly AND Horrible Phone, but hopefully soon! Holly is even talking about getting him to climb on her hand. She is really into this whole business. She is pretty awesome about it.