Baytril Question

[BrandyJ]

(See end of post for Chameleon info)

I took my 6mos female Ambanja / Nosy Be cross to the vet today to have her eyes looked at. She has one eye sunken in and the other has a buldge on the bottom part of eye. She has been very passive which is unlike her and just seems like something is wrong.

The vet gave her fluids by injection when I asked if she may be dehydrated. (This was about an inch long needle that was entirely inserted under the skin. This was shocking to me) Is that normal?

I asked if she needed an antibiotic for her eyes or an ointment. The vet was not sure what may be the problem and prescribed Baytril 2.27% Dosage .20ml once per day orally for 10 days. The vet already gave one dose at visit.

My question: Is Baytril usually prescribed for an eye problem? I've read many posts and I'm concerned about this particular antibiotic. And...was this a typically vet visit?

Thanks!

Chameleon Info:
•Your Chameleon – Panther Chameleon, Female, born February 2011
•Handling – She is handled daily to go from indoor habitat to outdoor habitat. (2 hour outdoor time)
•Feeding – She eats gut loaded crickets, about 18 per day, plus Phoenix Worms 6 a day.
•Supplements – Gut loaded crickets are dusted with Repashy Calcium+ daily
•Watering – Use a HabbaMist indoors 30sec every hour, mist nozzle outdoors for constant drip.
•Fecal Description – Looks normal ½ black ½ white.
•History – No history

Cage Info:
•Cage Type – 18 x 18 x 36 screen enclosure
•Lighting – repti-sun 5.0 plus 40 watt bulb Zoomed day blue for basking
•Temperature – Measure temp with temp gauge. Daytime is 80-85 and night is 75-76 degrees. Basking is 93-95 Degrees
•Humidity – Humidity is 56%
•Plants – Ficus tree, fake plants on tree branches.
•Placement – Enclosure is on countertop in a 10 x 10 room away from vent.
•Location – Reno, Nevada

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Subcutaneous fluids are very commonly given. Animals have a sort of pocket under their skin that humans don't have. It's a good place to give fluids because they're absorbed slowly into the animal's circulation. Fluids are given to cats this way for kidney failure on a daily basis for months to years at a time. It's a great way to rehydrate an animal without starting an IV catheter.

Baytril is probably the most common antibiotic used in reptiles. Since there wasn't a specific problem pinpointed it's probably to cover the bases in the case of infection. It may or may not work since it's a shot in the dark. Make sure your chameleon is well hydrated while on baytril!

 

[BrandyJ]

Thanks ferretinmyshoes. The size of the needle really freaked me out.

 

[ataraxia]

baytril may kill off his digestive enzymes. be sure to add nutribac to the back of the feeders to help out.

here is a link to read a little. look under internal bacterial infection for some tips.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/ataraxia/482-issues-body-region-internal.html

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Just wanted to point out that digestive flora is bacteria, not enzymes. Baytril does not have a significant effect on digestive bacteria. It's one of the few safe antibiotics to use in rabbits, which have exquisitely sensitive gut bacteria.

And nutrobac is a neutraceutical and therefore has no scientifically proven effect. Not that it's necessarily detrimental, but it may not be beneficial either.

Just to give you more info...

 

[KShook]

okay..a couple tips with baytril...I highly recommend adding baby food or Yogurt with it..Baytril burns their mouth..and she may shake her head and spit it out because of it...you dont want to use Baytril any longer than 2 weeks as it's hard on the chams Liver.. :/ BUT on the up side..Baytril is a very good antibiotic but it can be a bitharsh for a cham - unfortunatley there's not a lot of choices for vets to perscribe such a Small Sized Animal...As for your questions about the Fluids under the skin - thats totally normal to use that size of a needle under the skin, I had to do that for a while on a cham that I had. Anyways I wish you the best & and GL with your little Chammy.

~Kayla

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

They usually spit it out because of the taste, I have never had any experience that led me to believe it was burning their mouth. I've had plenty of it accidentally go into my mouth when a patient really doesn't want it - it didn't burn me. Baytril is excreted through both kidneys and liver and the more concerning side effect is kidney damage when baytril is combined with dehydration. Keep your cham well hydrated while he's on it.

 

[ataraxia]

ive learned something here ty. you are around this drug more than i am so i would take your advice. ive read from a few sites that baytril messes with digestive system. causing diarrhea and vomiting in some animals and that you should follow baytril with some probiotics.

heres a link on the bunnies forums with some members stating it caused problems with there bunnies.

http://rabbitsontheweb.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6880

heres some link saying probiotics should be given following baytril.

http://www.allbirdproducts.com/newproductpages/baytril.html
http://www.rathealth.co.uk/articles/baytril.html
http://www.themodernapprentice.com/diseases.htm
http://www.mouselovers.com/a/baytril-and-yogurt_post287.html

then i read from some sources that it has no adverse effects.

http://www.vetcontact.com/en/art.php?a=34&t=

heres some links on nutribac
http://www.mzrproducts.com/
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Utopia on the Web/Nutribac information.htm

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Yes, just like any medical treatment you may see different effects on individual animals. Happens in people too. But I just wanted to provide the other side of the story as well so it doesn't just sound like antibiotics are evil things. Baytril is used all the time in reptiles and disrupting GI flora has never been seen in my experience. Here is a quote from a very prominent reptile vet recognized nationally as an expert:

"I see no trouble in disruption of gut flora from baytril. Nobody thinks that pro-biotics work well in reptiles, as most come from mammal sources." on a recent case discussion with a chameleon specifically.

Recent research has revealed that the mammalian GI flora is different from that of birds or reptiles. I looked on the nutribac website and did not see any info that the bacteria they use is specific to reptiles, just common GI bacteria. But even lactobacillus varies from species to species, so much so that human probiotics are currently being questioned in their efficacy for even dogs. It's not really recommended by vets and it's not taught as a possible treatment due to lack of observed efficacy. Like I said, it probably won't hurt, but it probably won't help either...

 

[ataraxia]

im not trying to argue with you here so dont take me wrong. if anyone brings new information to the table that i feel is something beneficial to my ways of care.... i will research it.

here is a article produced by Melissa Kaplan. it is basically about reviving a starving animal but also has some information about restoring gut flora. same ingredients restore it in mammals also. im sure diets of any animal will depend on what is present.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=PRINT&A=1355

if you dont mind sending me a link for this. i would like to read it also. "Recent research has revealed that the mammalian GI flora is different from that of birds or reptiles".

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

if you dont mind sending me a link for this. i would like to read it also. "Recent research has revealed that the mammalian GI flora is different from that of birds or reptiles".

I'll have to look up some papers on it, I know it from my classes. It was taught in the canine internal medicine class as well as the exotics classes. Let me see what I can find...

I don't take offense at all and I don't think you're being argumentative. There is so much contradicting information on the Internet that it's difficult to know what to believe or not. And everyone has their own opinions. I just wanted to share more info from having experience with this in the medical field and talking with people that have much more experience than I do to give people more info to decide with.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

here is a article produced by Melissa Kaplan. it is basically about reviving a starving animal but also has some information about restoring gut flora. same ingredients restore it in mammals also. im sure diets of any animal will depend on what is present.

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=PRINT&A=1355

From that site regarding bene-bac: "Originally marketed for birds, it has been repackaged for reptiles. Unfortunately, it does not seem to work well in herbivorous reptiles." It goes on to say two other things do work, but not cite any evidence to support the claim. The types of bacteria may be the same across species but there are different strains that have different characteristics and that's where the problem seems to be occurring from what I've been taught.

 

[Willardi]

Was the vet wearing a Miami Vice suit? Almost everyone stopped using Baytril on Reptiles in the late 90's.

 

[ataraxia]

i have used bene bac on a panther chameleon of mine. i cant say whether or not it was the reason for changes but i can say i saw no visible signs that would indicate issues using the product.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Was the vet wearing a Miami Vice suit? Almost everyone stopped using Baytril on Reptiles in the late 80's.

Uhh who told you that? They were mistaken.

 

[Willardi]

Uhh who told you that? They were mistaken.

No one person told me that, many did infact. Enrofloxacin (baytril), is very hard on the kidneys, and with its use renal failure was more common than not. The prefered antibiotic that everyone I know use in place is Ceftazidime. I Used to use baytril when it was the only game in town, or at least the best game in town. But for the past 8 years or so, I have been using Ceftazidime with absolutely no secondary problems. Maybe it's just me.

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Ceftazidime does have its benefits. In particular I like the q72h dosage schedule as opposed to baytril. However, just because you don't use baytril does not mean that the entire profession doesn't. The oral dosing of baytril is much preferred when people can't give injections. There are several factors that go into choosing an appropriate antibiotic regimen. I am aware of the risk with baytril and the kidneys, which is why I've mentioned several times to keep the Cham well hydrated while on it. Taking preventive steps to assure adequate hydration while on it helps a lot with the risks. There is nothing wrong with using baytril if it suits the situation in my professional opinion.

 

[BrandyJ]

A big thanks to all of you. This is my first Chameleon vet experience and I just didn't feel confident when we left the office. Especially when she turned very dark in the car on the way home. She has lightened up a bit, but not her peachy color like she was before the appointment.

As far as keeping her well hydrated what suggestion might you all have?
I have been giving her an additional shower the past two days. By that I mean I put her on a plant in the shower with the water at room temp. and have the water reflect off the wall onto the plant. She seems to have trouble seeing (just my thoughts from her behavior) so I only leave her in for about 5 minutes and supervised.

I had also given her fish oil drops. 2 drops for 2 days. The vet didn't say whether to continue or discontinue that. Thoughts on that?

Thanks again, I really do appreciate it. This little one is very loved and I just need to see her being her monkey self again.

 

[BrandyJ]

Question on Ceftazidime....is this only by injection?

thanks.

 

[BrandyJ]

This morning she was still dark. She lightened up after having a luke warm shower. She's peach colored again, but not really moving around or eating. I turned on a red bulb heat lamp in her cage for additional warmth since this seems to get her to lighten her color and where she parked herself. I turn it off once she's warmed up. She is also developing a bruise at injection site from the electrolyte shot yesterday.

We gave her Zoomed Repti Turtle Eye Drops (one drop per eye) and she has her eyes opened. (ingredients: Water, isotonic saline solution, solubilizing hydrotrope, vit A, vit B12)

Also gave her Fluker's Repta+Boost to help prevent dehydration. She seemed to like this alot.

And, water by eye dropper.

Any further suggestions are greatly appreciated!