black knees, swollen feet

[fluffythecrab]

here are some pics http://www.grovestreet.com/jsp/picview.jsp?album=88326

I was trying to buy a coral for my husband's aquarium today when the owner of the fish store (that also sells some reptiles) stopped to ask me a question. I had sold him a few of my baby veiled chameleons about 2 months ago. One of the females had been sold to someone about 3 weeks ago. That person returned her this week because of a problem with her back legs. I don't know what kind of care, housing, food, lighting, water, or supplements she had been receiving during those 3 weeks. I also don't really know how well the fish store owner had been caring for her. He did have a flourescent light. He fed crickets and said they were misted atleast twice a day. He said they dusted the crickets but with what I do not know.

Anyway, the store owner said he really couldn't take care of her and asked if I would take her and try to nurse her back to health.....

So, she is kinda thin and looks a bit dehydrated to me. Her back legs have what look like wounds around her knees. They are black and blue and look bruised. The discoloration is very symetrical. Her feet and ankles are swollen below the discolored areas. She is very painful. She can move her feet, but either because of the swelling and/or the pain she can not grip very hard. She also has a couple of dark spots that look like scratches on her face and tail.

As soon as I brought her home I put her in the shower and she immediately started drinking. She drank for 40 min. straight! I didn't feed her yet because I don't have anything small enough to give her right now and I didn't think to have the store owner give me some crickets.

If you have seen anything like this or have any advice I would truely appreciate it. The nearest vet I would trust with a cham is about 2 1/2 hours away from me. There are closer vets who could probably help me through this, but I know they have no real experience with chams.

thank you,
chelsey

 

[IndyFan]

Only two things i can think of right now that would be dehydrated and it sounds like your taking care of that with showers and as far as the scrapes go maybe got weak enough from the dehydration to fall of a branch or whatever it was climbing.Or a cat got a hold of it which wouldnt really explain much.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Wow.
I have not seen a chameleon with that specific problem before.
I think gout or edema when I hear "swelling of the limbs" ...
and actually have no personal experience with either of those conditions.
Water is for sure the first step toward correcting this situation ... at least she's not thirsty now.
Was she completely surrendered back to you?
I really think you might need to travel to that vet.
I also think Catherine (Pardalisgirl) and Pam (Pamschams) are in Washington.
pm them and see if they know of any vet that might be closer or if they have any ideas about this.
Good luck and keep us posted... if you find out any more info, I would love to know what is causing this.

-Brad

 

[OldChamKeeper]

From my pet store years I have to say you should make the drive and head to that vet. Those sound like physical injuries, the discoloration and swelling. Also being so similar in appearance would possibly indicate the injuries happened at the same time. I'd lean towards an injury from mishandling or something similar, it's really hard to say excactly the incident was but you're describing physical injuries I used to see way too often in the retail business.

Hope that helps but let the vet make the final determination.

 

[kinyonga]

I would get it to the vets right away! Poor chameleon.

Is that a black mark on its side too?
Could it have been badly burned and the knees too?

 

[fluffythecrab]

Thank you all for your replies. Because of my work schedule it is going to be kinda hard for me to get to the vet I was mentioning for awhile. I will have to wait until my next day off. I will pm those two and see if they trust anyone closer.

Its hard for me to imagine this being caused from someone mishandling the animal. Thats really really sad. But I'm sure its possible.

I've had my male veiled burn himself once and it doesn't really look like that, but I don't know how old the injury is and it could be an old burn. Not sure how she would only burn her knees though.

My plan for now is daily showers and dilute chlorhexadine rinses on the wounds. I work as a vet tech at a small animal practice and I could start a culture and sensitivity on the wounds.

 

[PardalisGirl]

Washington State Vets.......

Where in Washington state are you? Fluffythecrab PM'd me asking for vet ideas. I gave her mine who's clinic is open seven days a week now. But depending on where you are in Washington this may not be suitable. Please let us know where you are and maybe other Washington state people can chime in with their vet references. This little Veiled girl has to get to one for some antibiotics. The leg that is shown looks like it has a knee injury that has caused the swelling below. But you say it is on the other knee too and it is hard to believe that the same injury was caused on both knees. Very bizarre. In any case severe swelling like this can cause a septic infection because the circulation is impaired. You need to get that controlled along with finding the root cause of it all. Please keep us informed. This is something unusual and it would really help us all learn from your experience so we can help anyone else that has the same issue in the future. Saying a prayer for this little girl.

 

[Chameleons Northwest]

We know of 3 qualified vets we could recommend. One in the Tacoma area, one in North Seattle, and one near "Royden" in Bothell. Of course, those are all on this side of the passes. There's a lady on the Melleri Forum that uses 2 vets in the Spokane area, if fluffythecrab is on the other side.

There are 2 ways I could imagine double knee burns. One would be (poosible, I guess) if the cham were suspended from the top of the cage, just below the basking bulb. Another would be if the cham was outside and on top of the cage, or somewhere else near a basking bulb setup, and was stretching to reach a higher object. That would leave the knees exposed. And, if the cham was climbing over the basking bulb fixture, the knees perhaps could possibly be burned badly, while the rest of the body was not. Light fixtures are some of the most dangerous aspects of allowing chams to free roam.

 

[fluffythecrab]

Sorry about not giving me location. I live in Shelton (about 30 minutes North of Olympia on 101).

I took her and her cage to work with me today. I got an accurate weight and sent out a culture and sensitivity to the lab. I showered her early this morning before work and she only drank a little. Her left leg looks a little better while her right leg looks a little worse.

I got onto VIN while at work and read up on various cases with injured chams. It didn't look like gout to me at all from what I read and saw so I started her on Baytril 5mg/kg by mouth and metacam 2mg/kg (edit 0.2mg/kg metacam). I spent what seemed like an hour doing serial dilutions..... She seems less painful since she had the metacam. I do hope her kidneys are able to handle the drugs. I didn't try to send out blood because I have no idea how to get a sample on a cham (especially such a small one). I decided to start her on meds because I'm afraid she will get worse before I can get her seen.

I have a call into the guy from the pet store. I would like to know exactly how long ago she had been returned. I remember he said that she had a fountain in her cage.

Oh, she had a lot of interest in eating crickets today.

Thanks for helping. I'll keep you informed.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Clear case of burn - I'm almost sure of it. symetrical injuries like this are almost always burns. The light is too powrful, too close. She's simply sat under it until she cooked.

the knees are the most easily buned part of a veiled chameleon (experience, unfortunatly, is how i know this). By the time their body heats up enough to burn, their internal temp is already high, so they move. With extremities, like the knees, they don't seem to "feel" the heat.

The knees, when badly burned, look just like the knees in the piture. Black, red, dripping with pus, swollen. In a few weeks they'll be scabbed up to twice the size they are now.

My male burned his knee and side very badly some years ago. baytril made him sick and weird, so I stopped. instead, I used just a betadine rinse, and silva sulfa cream. A day after going off the baytril, he started acting normally. in fact, aside from the disgusting, swollen (much worse than the pic of her knee, believe it or not) knee and side, he acted perfectly normally.

Scabs fell off a month later, grew back, and he pulled them off a few weeks later.

After I moved, poor SOB got burned again (while I was at training, my male veiled, and two melleri got severe burns). this time, it was his dorsal crest and side.

in all cases, this happened after cold nights. The animals' core temps were down, and took longer to bring up. By the time their internal temps registered warm enough, the temps of their sin was cooked.

I wish they could tell that they were getting burned...

If you can't get to a vet, get some Silva Sulfa cream (used for burns and as a topcal antiseptic) if you can. Might be tough, cause i think it stil requires a prescription...

Just apply some sort of topical antiseptic, keep her fed and watered, and she should be ok... provided there's no systemic infection.


Many vets prescribe a general antibiotic as a preventative against such a thing. I'm NOT a vet. It's been my experience that chameleons respond well to topical treatments, heal from physical injuries well, and DO NOT do well with general antibiotics.

I tend to not use any general antibiotics unless there IS a systemic infection. Which I've never seen in one of my animals following a cut/burn/etc.

the injuries are bad, and I would reccomend getting her to a vet for at the very least - some SS cream. it's invaluable. Really. cuts, burns, foot injuries, mouth injuries, etc.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

Oh, the swelling of the lower limbs is likely due to the damage of the knees. the damage can result in a fluid buildup. So, it might be swollen as a result of an infection. But it might be a simple mechanical issue resulting from the damage.

 

[fluffythecrab]

Thanks. I will get some Silva Sulfa cream. We don't carry it in our vet clinic but I'm sure my doctor will let me order some. She doesn't seem any worse and she is eating like a pig. As long as she doesn't seem to have any side affects I think I will keep her on the Baytril and Metacam. The metacam is a NSAID that is supposed to help the pain some and appears to be used quite often with reptiles.

On the metacam I wrote the dose out wrong in my earlier post. Its actually 0.2mg/kg (very important decimal point)

 

[kinyonga]

Flamazine (similar) might be available at your vet clinic....its great for burns, and kills some fungus and bacteria as well.

 

[fluffythecrab]

Just wanted to let you all know, she is doing much better. She now uses both hind legs and the swelling is almost gone. I don't think she can straighten out her right leg all the way, but it is looking so much better. She has a great appetite and is getting hard to handle. She really looks much better.

I talked to the guy from the pet store who would really like to have her back. He reimbersed me for my vet bills (which were not much) and he said he would probably not sell her but keep her at his house. I really don't have a place to keep her so I'm kinda happy that he wants her back but I hope he will take care of her. I plan on keeping her at least one or two more weeks to be sure she is healed up and really recovered before she goes back.

Thanks for all you help. I was a lot of help for me to get advise from people who have some experience with this stuff. I've seen thermal burns, but never this bad.

Thanks again,
Chelsey

 

[bucky]

I woulda thought MBD with the swelling of the legs.