Breeding Ethics

[Chameleon Company]

The rumor that the females would die was definitely around when I bought my fist veiled in 94, but it was on its way out. I don't remember ever thinking it was true. I'm sure some shops still tell customers it is true. It is funny how rumors have a hard time dying. Did you guys know superworms eat their way out of the stomach. I heard this one a couple weeks ago.

As far as the slowing of the cycle by reducing feeding. This is new to me. When you mentioned it to me a couple weeks ago, with your cristatus, it was the first time hearing it. I have read a little bit about this since them. So this developed, or at least wasn't very common, within the last 10 years. I will experiment with this with my new chameleons.

It is not just reducing food. It is lowering ambient temps 5-10 F, and shortening the photo-period with the change of season.

As for the 'old wives tales', there is plenty of misinformation still around. It shows up in this forum with all its "experts" fairly often.

 

[rshewfel]

The food thing was. I was playing with feeding lots of veggies and far fewer insects to try and slow egg production. I knew others who reduced feeding altogether.

I guess this has been around for awhile. Last time I kept chameleons, there was not many serious keepers here in Colorado.

 

[sandrachameleon]

This thread and others similar I always find interesting because as someone who is interested in developing programs for lizards in general that involve self sustaining terrarium populations these are issues I have to wrestle with to my own satisfaction- because self sustaining populations result in a fairly significant amount of offspring. Not sure yet if it can be done with chameleons- Jim says no and has a lot of experience behind his opinion...

I don't have a lot of easy answers, but I do have a little food for thought maybe that is worth consideration-

First- I think defining what constitutes a "mill" would be a useful. When I think of a "mill" immediate comparisons with "puppy mills" spring to mind. I don't think these comparisons are valid when it comes to care of the offspring because the well being of the lizard depends almost entirely on the environment of the terrarium and the diet it is fed. Puppies on the other hand, need social and mental stimulation and lots of room for their activity level. Caring properly for 1000 puppies would be worlds apart from caring properly for 1000 baby chameleons. Keep the chameleons in appropriate caging, keep them clean and in small groups, good lighting and water, and drop food in and they are going to be healthy and happy. Do the same with dogs and you end up with emotional and mental issues...

Second- I do think that there is some validity to the issues of genetic ethics as a comparison to puppy mills. Unfortunately I think the reptile community as a whole tends to be a little short sighted when it comes to some of those issues- small scale breeders tend to use "pets" selected from only a few animals from limited genetic background (meaning go to a show or store, pic from several siblings for one breeder, maybe even for both breeders) as breeders. Large scale breeders tend to select from more animals but end up selecting for traits like color over body size and proportion and general vigour.

Third- the ethics of who to sell to.

Big one and the one that started the thread really-

A story to consider-

A few years ago I produced one of the uncommonly produced clutches of mellers chameleons. True captive bred from parents that actually bred in my terraria- not just captive hatched. I took a great deal of time and care raising the babies and sold them mostly to members of the forums when they were really well started (can't remember- 4 or 5 months old). This species is special to me and I really wanted to make sure these went to good homes that were serious about providing for them. Hopefully permanent situations. I set the price pretty high to try and weed out some of the less serious. I felt really good about who bought them- a number went to pretty vocal forum participants at that time. What happened was over the next 18-24 months many of these lizards were resold/rehomed. And these were from some of the more experienced forum members.

Just a few weeks ago in fact I was contacted about another one of these as it had been recently rehomed and had experienced some poor husbandry conditions prior to the transfer, again at the hands of a forum member who was vocal and respected at the original time of sale.

Also- I've had the opportunity to see a number of private collections, some from some pretty well respected and even published and well educated members of the reptile community. I can tell you for certain that these things do not always equal a well cared for collection. Likewise I've seen many novices setups that were excellent.

I guess my thought is this- you can't tell as a seller what will happen to your animals once they are no longer your property. You can try and screen, etc, but that does not in my experience, equal an understanding of how your animals will be cared for once they change hands, even if they are going to a famous reptile author or veterinarian or breeder, and even if they go to a good home that you have found, odds are pretty high that they are going to be resold even if they are something rare and wonderful and in excellent health, and when they are resold you will have no control over the situation they go into.

The other thing I think about as well is that at the end of the day, these *are* lizards. Not dogs. Not little humans in funny costumes. They are experiencing the world from the mind of a lizard with the limited mental complexity of a lizard. There are fish that experience the world on the same complexity level. Chickens probably experience the world on a more complex level. Pigs certainly do. The mice many feed their snakes, are likely experiencing the world on a more complex level than most species of chameleon.

To illustrate- as a teen I had an oscar fish that would rush to the front of his aquarium when I approached and would leap from the water to take pellets from my fingers (in spite of a few missed tank landings!). A chameleon that shows more mental ability than that fish, is probably pretty rare. I once had some fish that cared for their eggs. That is possibly more complex than any chameleon behavior I have witnessed. Certainly a chameleon's experience of the world is closer to the complexity of the fish, than it is to the dog or human experience.

So the point- where is the line drawn? Do we become indignant about "fish mills?" Why not when some fish show similar complexity as our chameleons- simply because they lack legs? Do we refuse to eat commercially grown chickens? Where is the line drawn? At our roach mill tubs?

Now before someone takes that the wrong way- I've shed tears and stayed up nights and been sick with worry and grieved and stressed and sacrificed and all the rest for the animals- but at the end of the day- I do sometimes wonder if many forum members have led extremely soft and sheltered lives that put them apart from the natural world by some of the things they post. Most are eating animals every day that were more conscious of their existence and death and who experienced a much more mentally and emotionally complex reality compared to their chameleons.

That's not to say that we should not give the best possible care for our lizards- I strongly believe we should offer a high quality of life, and that we should respect and nurture the life we choose to make our private property (and all life generally). And I've definitely mourned lizard pets and all the rest, as I said. So maybe my rational and emotional minds disagree a little on this final point.

So form your own answers- but at least consider things from all the viewpoints your own complex reality can imagine.

For me, I feel comfortable making sure I give my breeding stock the best care I can, and giving my offspring that high level care. I try to be picky over the long haul about who is kept back for breeding each generation and consider vigor over color.

I feel comfortable with the idea that my responsibility as a breeder is to educate and answer questions and tech support for my offspring and to share my experience in places like these forums if I feel it can benefit someone and their animal. As a breeder I want my animals to be in a healthy and happy home - it is the best for the lizard, and also for the owner. I also generally want that for all terrarium lizards- I feel a responsibility to promote good husbandry because I am encouraging lizard husbandry generally.

Along with that is my strong belief that the buyer of an animal needs to be responsible as well, and to educate themselves by asking their breeder questions, reading books and magazine articles and getting info from the internet, etc. If someone buys from me I make it easy by helping them along the way, but even if they buy one from a pet shop- in the end it is their responsibility to educate themselves.

Lastly- someone mentioned something about larger breeders lowering the price of animals. It's kind of funny, but I've always sort of thought the opposite was true- bedroom breeders who 1) could not afford to keep offspring around for long and 2)did not care about or need or understand if they really were making a profit or not were the ones responsible for lowering the prices of terrarium bred lizards. In addition I always figured they were most responsible for genetic weakening of breeding stock because they often bought a single pair on a single day, often from a single set of parents, to use as breeding stock often for a single generation, without thought of future or past generations.

But I guess the truth is the price problem is more spread and larger breeders, small ones, distributors, retailers and even consumers who keep shopping low price are all responsible.

good post.

 

[okiroo]

This thread and others similar I always find interesting because as someone who is interested in developing programs for lizards in general that involve self sustaining terrarium populations these are issues I have to wrestle with to my own satisfaction- because self sustaining populations result in a fairly significant amount of offspring. Not sure yet if it can be done with chameleons- Jim says no and has a lot of experience behind his opinion...

I don't have a lot of easy answers, but I do have a little food for thought maybe that is worth consideration-

First- I think defining what constitutes a "mill" would be a useful. When I think of a "mill" immediate comparisons with "puppy mills" spring to mind. I don't think these comparisons are valid when it comes to care of the offspring because the well being of the lizard depends almost entirely on the environment of the terrarium and the diet it is fed. Puppies on the other hand, need social and mental stimulation and lots of room for their activity level. Caring properly for 1000 puppies would be worlds apart from caring properly for 1000 baby chameleons. Keep the chameleons in appropriate caging, keep them clean and in small groups, good lighting and water, and drop food in and they are going to be healthy and happy. Do the same with dogs and you end up with emotional and mental issues...

Second- I do think that there is some validity to the issues of genetic ethics as a comparison to puppy mills. Unfortunately I think the reptile community as a whole tends to be a little short sighted when it comes to some of those issues- small scale breeders tend to use "pets" selected from only a few animals from limited genetic background (meaning go to a show or store, pic from several siblings for one breeder, maybe even for both breeders) as breeders. Large scale breeders tend to select from more animals but end up selecting for traits like color over body size and proportion and general vigour.

Third- the ethics of who to sell to.

Big one and the one that started the thread really-

A story to consider-

A few years ago I produced one of the uncommonly produced clutches of mellers chameleons. True captive bred from parents that actually bred in my terraria- not just captive hatched. I took a great deal of time and care raising the babies and sold them mostly to members of the forums when they were really well started (can't remember- 4 or 5 months old). This species is special to me and I really wanted to make sure these went to good homes that were serious about providing for them. Hopefully permanent situations. I set the price pretty high to try and weed out some of the less serious. I felt really good about who bought them- a number went to pretty vocal forum participants at that time. What happened was over the next 18-24 months many of these lizards were resold/rehomed. And these were from some of the more experienced forum members.

Just a few weeks ago in fact I was contacted about another one of these as it had been recently rehomed and had experienced some poor husbandry conditions prior to the transfer, again at the hands of a forum member who was vocal and respected at the original time of sale.

Also- I've had the opportunity to see a number of private collections, some from some pretty well respected and even published and well educated members of the reptile community. I can tell you for certain that these things do not always equal a well cared for collection. Likewise I've seen many novices setups that were excellent.

I guess my thought is this- you can't tell as a seller what will happen to your animals once they are no longer your property. You can try and screen, etc, but that does not in my experience, equal an understanding of how your animals will be cared for once they change hands, even if they are going to a famous reptile author or veterinarian or breeder, and even if they go to a good home that you have found, odds are pretty high that they are going to be resold even if they are something rare and wonderful and in excellent health, and when they are resold you will have no control over the situation they go into.

The other thing I think about as well is that at the end of the day, these *are* lizards. Not dogs. Not little humans in funny costumes. They are experiencing the world from the mind of a lizard with the limited mental complexity of a lizard. There are fish that experience the world on the same complexity level. Chickens probably experience the world on a more complex level. Pigs certainly do. The mice many feed their snakes, are likely experiencing the world on a more complex level than most species of chameleon.

To illustrate- as a teen I had an oscar fish that would rush to the front of his aquarium when I approached and would leap from the water to take pellets from my fingers (in spite of a few missed tank landings!). A chameleon that shows more mental ability than that fish, is probably pretty rare. I once had some fish that cared for their eggs. That is possibly more complex than any chameleon behavior I have witnessed. Certainly a chameleon's experience of the world is closer to the complexity of the fish, than it is to the dog or human experience.

So the point- where is the line drawn? Do we become indignant about "fish mills?" Why not when some fish show similar complexity as our chameleons- simply because they lack legs? Do we refuse to eat commercially grown chickens? Where is the line drawn? At our roach mill tubs?

Now before someone takes that the wrong way- I've shed tears and stayed up nights and been sick with worry and grieved and stressed and sacrificed and all the rest for the animals- but at the end of the day- I do sometimes wonder if many forum members have led extremely soft and sheltered lives that put them apart from the natural world by some of the things they post. Most are eating animals every day that were more conscious of their existence and death and who experienced a much more mentally and emotionally complex reality compared to their chameleons.

That's not to say that we should not give the best possible care for our lizards- I strongly believe we should offer a high quality of life, and that we should respect and nurture the life we choose to make our private property (and all life generally). And I've definitely mourned lizard pets and all the rest, as I said. So maybe my rational and emotional minds disagree a little on this final point.

So form your own answers- but at least consider things from all the viewpoints your own complex reality can imagine.

For me, I feel comfortable making sure I give my breeding stock the best care I can, and giving my offspring that high level care. I try to be picky over the long haul about who is kept back for breeding each generation and consider vigor over color.

I feel comfortable with the idea that my responsibility as a breeder is to educate and answer questions and tech support for my offspring and to share my experience in places like these forums if I feel it can benefit someone and their animal. As a breeder I want my animals to be in a healthy and happy home - it is the best for the lizard, and also for the owner. I also generally want that for all terrarium lizards- I feel a responsibility to promote good husbandry because I am encouraging lizard husbandry generally.

Along with that is my strong belief that the buyer of an animal needs to be responsible as well, and to educate themselves by asking their breeder questions, reading books and magazine articles and getting info from the internet, etc. If someone buys from me I make it easy by helping them along the way, but even if they buy one from a pet shop- in the end it is their responsibility to educate themselves.

Lastly- someone mentioned something about larger breeders lowering the price of animals. It's kind of funny, but I've always sort of thought the opposite was true- bedroom breeders who 1) could not afford to keep offspring around for long and 2)did not care about or need or understand if they really were making a profit or not were the ones responsible for lowering the prices of terrarium bred lizards. In addition I always figured they were most responsible for genetic weakening of breeding stock because they often bought a single pair on a single day, often from a single set of parents, to use as breeding stock often for a single generation, without thought of future or past generations.

But I guess the truth is the price problem is more spread and larger breeders, small ones, distributors, retailers and even consumers who keep shopping low price are all responsible.

This is the most valid post this thread has had to offer;Your thoughts greatly reflect my own.

-We need to be realistic but positive in rehoming and selling chameleons. Bad things happen and we can never really understand other people. Try not to be cold and negative to one another, we all share some type of love/fascination/career in chameleons and I believe we can combine these paths into something grater- its why this community is so wonderful- we can understand each aspect of chameleon owning and see one another's views BUT we need to stop piling onto one person who posts something a majority disagrees with so strongly. If its not hurting the chameleon then its opinion and each opinion is equally valid even if the majority disagrees.

 

[Leslie11]

all due respect, there is no such thing as a "pardalis mill". Or a "calyptratus mill". Further, the number of ads for chameleons on ks, which you site, is not half what is was 5 years ago. I doubt you know what a "huge distributer" is !!!

If these animals could be so easily "milled", then they would be selling for $25 apiece. As we have had more than a decade for "demand" to catch up with "supply", if these animals were so easily "milled", don't you think it would have happened by now ?

As politely as i can say it, you don't know wtf you are talking about.

love it!!!!

 

[Mike Fisher]

All due respect, there is no such thing as a "pardalis mill". or a "calyptratus mill". Further, the number of ads for chameleons on KS, which you site, is not half what is was 5 years ago. I doubt you know what a "huge distributer" is !!!

If these animals could be so easily "milled", then they would be selling for $25 apiece. As we have had more than a decade for "demand" to catch up with "supply", if these animals were so easily "milled", don't you think it would have happened by now ?

As politely as I can say it, you don't know WTF you are talking about.

I don't know about the present marketplace, but there were certainly "calyptratus mills" in the 90's. I know because I operated one. I produced in excess of 3,000 veileds a year. I was the primary supplier to Petsmart, Petco, and many other smaller chains. Prices for quantity veileds dropped at one time to $12.50 ea. I got out of the quantity chameleon business after a contractor killed the power to my incubators and I lost in excess of 3,000 eggs. It took five years and a lawsuit to get my money.

In producing these, it was done as ethically as possible. All of my breeder males were wild caught, I could not take a chance on the genetics of captive bred from a questionable source.

 

[Chameleon Company]

I don't know about the present marketplace, but there were certainly "calyptratus mills" in the 90's. I know because I operated one. I produced in excess of 3,000 veileds a year. I was the primary supplier to Petsmart, Petco, and many other smaller chains. Prices for quantity veileds dropped at one time to $12.50 ea. I got out of the quantity chameleon business after a contractor killed the power to my incubators and I lost in excess of 3,000 eggs. It took five years and a lawsuit to get my money.

In producing these, it was done as ethically as possible. All of my breeder males were wild caught, I could not take a chance on the genetics of captive bred from a questionable source.

Well, it comes down to what is a "mill" in the animal business. As noted earlier, a "mill" was originally assigned to the production of dogs, as it carried negative connotations, specifically the poor husbandry, hygiene, and nurturing of those higher animals. It was a bad analogy when first raised. It still is. I see nothing in your experience that indicates that you ran a similar operation to such "mills". But if you want to have been a "mill" too, then by all means !

 

[Mike Fisher]

Well, it comes down to what is a "mill" in the animal business. As noted earlier, a "mill" was originally assigned to the production of dogs, as it carried negative connotations, specifically the poor husbandry, hygiene, and nurturing of those higher animals. It was a bad analogy when first raised. It still is. I see nothing in your experience that indicates that you ran a similar operation to such "mills". But if you want to have been a "mill" too, then by all means !

Well, you can't produce large quantities of chameleons with poor husbandry so I guess if you use the term in the literal aspect, you are correct. I guess I'm an optimist and never attached any negative connotations to the term until now. Let me rephrase, "large quantity breeder", not "chameleon abuser, mill operator".