Breeding panthers

[alfiealbino]

Hi, i am interested in breeding panther chameleons, what i would like to know is if it is posssible to house a pair together? if this is possible what size housing would they require? if it is not possible what other species of chameleon can be housed in pairs? i am especially interested in jacksons chameleons.

Thanks, Ben

 

[zarko]

as i know just Rhampoleon species can be housed together

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Ben,

Glad to see you're getting started on some research before you get any animals.
The rule is: Old world chameleons need to be housed seperately.

-Brad

 

[Ashley]

They can only be put together for the few days during copulation. It would be cool to have a fairy tale world where they can live together like a little lizard couple, but if you try in real life sadly the male will most likely become a widower. I think the way I heard it from a breeder I asked at a show is that he will "hump her to death" LOL. I bit graphic I know... but it got the point across. They don't get lonely or anything.
However if you so choose, providin that there is sufficient living space you can keep more than one female in a cage.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

However if you so choose, providin that there is sufficient living space you can keep more than one female in a cage.

Hmmmmmmmm.
I am going to have to disagree.
They really are very territorial animals that are only really happy with their own space.
The environment would have to be quite large to do this successfully, in my opinion.
It would take less space to have seperate enclosures.

-Brad

 

[HiroProtagonist]

The guy I got my male jacksons from has had the same breeding pair in what looks like a 2x2x5 (LxWxH) enclosure in his backyard for several years. I think he said his male was 8 years old...not sure of the female (I want to say she's a year younger but I'm not positive)...but they're healthy and the guy seems to know what he's doing because his house is somewhat of a reptile zoo.

Just a thought. Try it...nothing works for everybody, but this has worked for some.

 

[alfiealbino]

Thanks for all the helpfull replies, so the answer is simply no but if the cage is large enough then it will be ok to house more than one female in a cage. The story of the jacksons chameleons is intruiging, has anybody else heard of stores like this? as it would be great to house together a small group ( 1.2 ) of jacksons . As it's not possible to house them together ( panthers ) what sort of size cage would they require? i have found care sheets that recommend sizes but i would like to get an answer from breeders so that i know im doing the right thing.

Thanks again, Ben

 

[HBSOLID]

I tryed to put my new female panther in the cage with my male and I got to agree with Ashley he want to breed to death, she wasn't ready to mate and he was.
So he began to chase her around until she became aggressive and he became aggressive too he tried to fight her so he could mate basicly a long story short don't pair them up even big cages will not suit them because you got to remember once your male chameleon see the female he will chase her to mate so a big cage would be a waste of money. When it comes to the more aggressive chameleons like the panthers and veiled theirs no housing them together but I have seen jacksons do well to gather with 5ft cages also flap neck chameleons and as while as fishers chameleons too. My advise for you is to get a non aggressive chameleons and try only if the cage is real big at least 4 to 5ft and be ready 2 separate if a fight breaks out cause the chances will still be great.

 

[joefarah]

This is one of those situations where the question shouldn't be, "can it be done like this...?" but rather, "What is the best way to do it?"

The best way to house the species you are discussing is individually. It may be possible under certain circumstances to house multiple animals together for a short time, but this will inevitably result in aggression, stress, and likely death for at least one of the chams.


Remember, its not about what CAN be done, but rather, what is the BEST way to do it...

Just my 2 cents

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Well said Joefarah!
There are people doing all kinds of things that may be working out for them...but we cannot list them under proper husbandry.
Giving examples of exceptions to the rule, rather than established successful methods, to a new person really just confuses the situation.
Best thing to do with true, old world chameleons is provide each individual with it's own enclosure...even Jackson's.
The end.

-Brad

 

[dodolah]

They can only be put together for the few days during copulation. It would be cool to have a fairy tale world where they can live together like a little lizard couple, but if you try in real life sadly the male will most likely become a widower. I think the way I heard it from a breeder I asked at a show is that he will "hump her to death" LOL. I bit graphic I know... but it got the point across. They don't get lonely or anything.
However if you so choose, providin that there is sufficient living space you can keep more than one female in a cage.

The only enclosure that will be enough to keep more than one old world chameleon together would be as a large as your own house (let say a glass house).
If you have the mean and money to do it, then be my guess (I would love to see and come visit if you actually did it though )

 

[Dan]

I have a pair of male and female panthers together in a cage. They are both about 4 months old. The female was a little scared at first, but now they get along great. They bask together, and I even think she is learning little things from him. If he approaches her to quickly she puffs up a little, and it seems to keep him away. It seems like she has enough attitude to keep him at bay.

However, once they are sexually mature, Im not sure how they will react. Ive been told that if they live together from a young age, they will grow up just fine. I just have to make sure to remover her from the cage when she is gravid.

 

[joefarah]

I have a pair of male and female panthers together in a cage. They are both about 4 months old. The female was a little scared at first, but now they get along great. They bask together, and I even think she is learning little things from him. If he approaches her to quickly she puffs up a little, and it seems to keep him away. It seems like she has enough attitude to keep him at bay.

However, once they are sexually mature, Im not sure how they will react. Ive been told that if they live together from a young age, they will grow up just fine. I just have to make sure to remover her from the cage when she is gravid.

Yikes....

I'd just like to ask you a question:

Why do you think it is that everyone who would be considered a "well-known" breeder keeps them individually?

It would certainly cut down on space and resources and be cheaper to do if they kept them in pairs...

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Dan,

In my opinion you're flirting with disaster.
They are getting along okay because of their age....but at 4 months...that's not going to continue for much longer.
Aside from the territory issues, she will get pregnant way too soon!
She needs to be at least a year old.
You were told wrong, by the way. I would seperate these two asap.

-Brad

 

[vtecdreamer]

Dan,

In my opinion you're fliriting with disaster.
They are getting along okay because of their age....but at 4 months...that's not going to continue for much longer.
Aside from the territory issues, she will get pregnant way too soon!
She needs to be at least a year old.
You were told wrong, by the way. I would seperate these two asap.

-Brad

So true!! I totally agree!

 

[boothy]

good luck with your chams breeding in the future Dan i hope they will breed for you! sometimes keeping them together like that will make them so used to each other they wont breed at all the male wont have any sex drive ahaha to go after the female, so split them up soon as possible Dan it will be better for you and them in the future, even if they are beside each other make sure there is a divider so they cant see each other at all ahaha or they will be puffing at each other and just causing extra stress on them so your overall just better to leave them in seperate enclosures

 

[PardalisGirl]

My thoughts again.........

I am going to repost my response to another similar thread Dan posted on. It is about the same topic. You may not agree with what I do, but all I can say is that it works for me and my Panthers are healthy and seem quite content with their situation. Here is the duplicate of my other response:

I have some thoughts on this........The male Dan has is one of my Ambilobe males. I sent it to him in November. Dan has sent me pictures of his female and the cage they are in prior to these posts. The male is still an appropriate size for the cage they are in now. I am the one that told Dan it will be OK to keep them together until the male starts to initiate any signs of hormones or breeding behavior. They are getting along fine and the female is eating well. I keep young juvies together in cages until they reach a certain size. Most breeders do. I still have the sibling males of Dan's male housed together in groups of three. They get along fine for now in a decent sized cage. I will separate them in another month or so.

When chams are young they are used to living with their siblings (male and female). They grow up used to that situation. This does not cause stress if the cage is large enough. Stress does not usually occur until hormones start to kick in. The cage Dan's pair is in now has plenty of room for the two to do as they please. I instructed Dan to separate the female when the male's hormones kick in and he becomes interested in her (he will start bobbing his head at her). I told him to keep her separate then until she was old enough to breed. It is going to be several months before this situation happens.

I told him to watch them carefully for any sign that the female was not happy or stressed out. As he stated, they are getting along fine right now. They sit next to each other. She is eating fine, sleeps comfortably near him and has good color. If the male invades her personal space, she lets him know by puffing up. She sets her boundaries and the male complies. This is a natural behavior, not a stressed one. Out in the wild, one would find this interaction going on regularly. One would find young juvie panthers on the same bush or shrub together. They would coexist together and there would be no territorial issue until the male's hormones kick in making them go after the females and drive away other males.

I know I may take some "heat" for my approach, but I do keep some of my Panthers as pairs in appropriate sized cages. It depends on the male. It works best when the male is raised in a sibling situation beyond the first few months. They are used to social interaction with others. I even have a couple of males that live with two females. The male leaves them alone unless they are receptive. I remove the females when they are gravid until a month after they lay. Then they go back with the male. I don't see signs of stress with these groups. The females eat, drink and sleep in comfort. I do heavily plant my cages so there is a lot of separation and cover. If I see that the pairing or grouping is not a happy situation I remove the females. Some males just don't have the personality for this. It's a matter of observation. I am home all day and spend a lot of time observing them.

Dan is a very observant and attentive keeper. He watches his pair very closely. I trust him when he says they get along fine right now. I trust him to notice when the male becomes attracted to the female. Until then, I personally think they can be kept together.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Ha Ha!
I just posted on the other thread.
As I said there (in so many words) advanced or alternate methods of keeping should be practiced by or under the tutoledge of experienced keepers....the rest of us should follow the rules

-Brad

 

[PardalisGirl]

Tee Hee

Tee Hee Brad

I totally agree Brad! And as I said in the other thread..........Dan and I discussed this all for a month before I sent him my male and were in constant communication after they were put together. This was a specific situation where Dan was receiving advise from the person that hatched his male out and knew it's personality. My advise to Dan was specific to him and his situation. I have never posted information on my keeping some chams as pairs or groups on this forum for everyone to see because it's not something I would want other new keepers to ever consider doing. Although I am very comfortable with what Dan is doing with his pair the general rule for success is still "keep them separate". It is definitely best to keep pushing the "general rules" in forum postings so that the widest degree of successful keeping of chameleons is achieved