Breeding true bloodlines

[Chameleoco]

Dean pulcini, youy are assuming that the chameleons in england are all brought in from shipments from abroad, a huge proportion of the chameleons on sale are bred in England.
you cannot just assume that a female next to a male sambava will also be a sambava. I understand that obviously shipments do come in, but i think that assuming is equally as irresponsible.

 

[ciafardo 4]

Not to be a downer but you think 7 chameleons is a very large collection of breeders ?HMMMMM?guess things are a little different across the pond.

 

[jojackson]

LOl, it certainly is farfetched to imagine they might end up back in the wild in madagascar! Life isnt a Pixar film
Dont take peoples opinions too personally, afterall thats all they are. It wouldnt matter if you posted here or somewhere else, nor what species or reptile type you referred to, its a pretty controversial topic anywhere in the herp world.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Then I would seek out a reputable breeder in U.K. or look elsewhere in the E.U. where I know there are breeders that care like in Germany for instance. And purposely cross breeding is irresponsible not getting ripped off. Enough said I have to water my panthers chameleons it's hot here today good luck.

Dean

 

[Chameleoco]

you are talking to me like i am stupid. I am not mass breeding for money treelionsuk, why are you assuming i will sell all my babies in bulk for 20 pounds each? i have no such intentions. And why do you assume that i do not have the facilities to house the chameleons?
You are also wrongly assuming that i think their are 200 people looking to buy a chameleon. There may not be, but do you know this for a fact? I have many friends and family having chameleons to whom the chameleons will not cost anything, and i can be certain that these chameleons will be looked after properly.
A particular friend has lent me their incubator for a time, so a number of chameleons will be going to a good home there, the friend keeping a number of reptiles for a number of years.
You assume that i am selling all these morphs out in bulk, you assume to much.
I started the thread to ask if there was any particular reason why panthers from the same locale seem more reluctant to mate than crosses. What i didnt ask for is a torrent of peoples opinions on why i choose to sometimes cross. I notice like many times in this forum, the actual question is never answered, rather a tirade about something which was not asked.

 

[Chameleoco]

i have seven panther chameleons in my current breeding programme
I also have many who i dont breed, and many who i have taken from people no longer able to care for them.

 

[TreelionsUK]

I never buy from anyone in the uk apart from like minded locale fans like me.would always make a trip to germany to buy a new one
Is it really not worth taking the time to produce some Quality,its easy to breed anything that will,but your duty not to do it

 

[Chameleoco]

i have seen breeders in germany advertise "picasso's" could you please inform me where this locale is? and also "blue diamonds"
I am a locale fan, yes, but also a fan of mother nature and trully believe different locales, if they were to meet in the wild, would mate. I think to state otherwise would be silly.

 

[TreelionsUK]

Im just stating the fact that 200 is alot of animals
you must have 200 really good friends to provide them all with a home

 

[gad58y]

the picasso is another name for a red bar ambilobe & blue diamond panthers come from ambato

hope this helps

graeme

 

[hailo]

go for it if you wanna breed yr crosses then do it. as long as you keep track of all your blood lines then by all means. ed and liddy do it and have beautiful babies, to be honest i just bought one because the colors are gorgeous. as far as market goes they sell out every year....

 

[jojackson]

I notice like many times in this forum, the actual question is never answered, rather a tirade about something which was not asked.

Bravo! I agree. Unfortunately My responses were of a 'my thoughts about that' nature aswell, I cant answer your original question however, since I simply dont know enough about chameleons specifically.

As A keeper and Breeder of reptiles for many years however, my first thoughts were that if you are housing together, or introducing only specific pairs, this may well play a part, as experience has taught me with other species.

Something to consider is to introduce the male to the females enclosure rather than vice versa. The change in surroundings wont bother the male from whats on his mind, so to speak, but the females may be a different story, if stressed she may become non receptive.

With this in mind, often breeders have more success on introduction, if they are not housed together for the rest of the year, but only introduced in the breeding season.
Im not sure why this so, but if you consider that two animals in the wild during breeding season, are likely to have met for the first time, its reasonable to assume that perhaps if they are housed together year round, intrest will be less (on the females part) 'familiarity breeds contempt' kind of thing.

Finally, not relying on the pairing of only one male with the female. Many breeders introduce multiple females to the stud male (not at the same time ofcourse) so changing the male you introduce may prove effective, eg she may be receptive to a different male than you had in mind. 'the eye of the beholder

Just some ideas!

 

[Chameleoco]

oh dear, i think you must have misunderstood.
I have not got 200 eggs all going to hatch at once, as I am sure you are aware, females can reinseminate, and after an initial coppulation with a male, a morph layed 40 eggs, then went on to produce a further two clutches of 37 and 28 with no contact with a male. This i had no control over, and as all the eggs were viable, what would you rather i do? throw them out? I have eggs hatching at staggard times. The cross which mated and produced the bulk of the eggs was bought as a pet and was not meant to become a breeder. It happened and so i thought, well as long as i am honest and truthfull, i shouldnt have too many problems, but then even your best efforts are not good enough for some. I think all the wrong conclusions have been jumped to here. Should i turn off the incubator and let eggs that range from being in diapause to sweating die?

 

[eisentrauti]

A very dynamic thread....
but what I don't understand: Here's a guy which is honest that he breed crossline. Across the big pond, seen from Europe, in the USA are also many people doing this, acting on this forum and until today nobody seems to have a problem with this.

May those members have more reputation or a "senior" title, but I don't understand why the hole round here's against him and behave like he's a beginning of all cross breedings

 

[TreelionsUK]

i have seen breeders in germany advertise "picasso's" could you please inform me where this locale is? and also "blue diamonds"
I am a locale fan, yes, but also a fan of mother nature and trully believe different locales, if they were to meet in the wild, would mate. I think to state otherwise would be silly.

If they were to meet and breed in the wild,this would result in a natural morph,like the ambanjas have done and why you have different variation(ambanja,ambato,ankify), this is why the locale is so important!,but island "nosy"Pardalis would rarely/never get the chance to breed with a mainland locale.There a lots of natural barriers that also protects and prevents mixing
Blue dimonds are Ambato's
And picasso's are ambilobes,mostly red bar,but there was a time when picasso referred to all ambilobes.

 

[laurie]

I just have to add this so we don't get a little too high and mighty about what we do here in the good old USA. One of our sponsors , Kammerflage Kreations, Ed & Liddy Krammer, offer morphs on their website. They are NOT irresponsible breeders. Before all of you attack this guy let's not act like we don't have and do the same things here. Yes some of us like to keep the bloodlines pure and yes I am one of those, but that doesn't give us the right to decide what is right for someone else. This guy keeps records, tells people what he is selling, and has every bit as much right to do so as any of us have to do what we do.

Now welcome to the forum chameloco. We always say all are welcome, but a few people do have buttons that are easy to push and they get just a tad aggressive.

 

[jojackson]

LOL Laurie, some folks buttons are self functioning, lock n load fully automatic and hair trigger!!!!

 

[nick barta]

I wasn't referring to your chameleons you daft dill, unless you have wild natural populations of the species in england!
I meant morphs of any species bred where there are wild natural (not introduced) populations of the same species.

OK, Jojackson, you crossed the line. I have never heard such foul language on the forum:you "DAFT DILL." I don't even know what that is, and I am still deeply offended. Are you saying he is a stupid dill pickle?? Please interpret this offensive term for us so we can gauge our level of shock and respond appropriatly.

Nick (BTW I love your posts).

 

[Lyneeso]

yes welcome!

I really think the bottom line is that some people do breed "whatever to whatever" just to make more "whatevers" which they do in fact sell in bulk to "pet shops" which simply sell "chameleons" to little children whom make the decision to buy on impulse do this ultimately for nothing but a profit. It's something that in my opinion is indisputably unethical.
Here we have somebody that got into this like many of the rest of us, who surely has developed passion, awareness, and determination in his doings. Anyone that breeds chams, true bloodlines or not, will have to sell or give the babies to someone and it's obviously rediculous to think there is no risk that whom we sell or give our babies to will make unethical choices. I believe that if Chameleoco is going about this as he/she has suggested he/she is, it is an example for anyone even considering the venture.

 

[Julirs]

For the record-I just asked a logical question.