Breeding true bloodlines

[nick barta]

Laurie,

It is a bit scary, but you said what was in my mind, almost word for word. I think i will wait for you to post before I do, it will save me a lot of thinking!! All it takes is a good Montana woman to set the record straight.

Makes me think of words like tolerance, acceptance, and politeness. Those qualities shouldn't change wether we are face to face or staring into a monitor.

I am not referring to anyone's post on this thread saying that you are intolerant, or not accepting, or not polite. Please don't take it personal.

This thread has really made me think about the issue of crosses verses pures, and that in itself made it worth reading for me.

Nick

I just have to add this so we don't get a little too high and mighty about what we do here in the good old USA. One of our sponsors , Kammerflage Kreations, Ed & Liddy Krammer, offer morphs on their website. They are NOT irresponsible breeders. Before all of you attack this guy let's not act like we don't have and do the same things here. Yes some of us like to keep the bloodlines pure and yes I am one of those, but that doesn't give us the right to decide what is right for someone else. This guy keeps records, tells people what he is selling, and has every bit as much right to do so as any of us have to do what we do.

Now welcome to the forum chameloco. We always say all are welcome, but a few people do have buttons that are easy to push and they get just a tad aggressive.

 

[laurie]

For the record-I just asked a logical question.

For the record you were not even in my thoughts when you asked a question. I find you to always be fair.

 

[TreelionsUK]

Everyone on the planet keeping these animals,is playing god with them.
Its a great Hobby,and full of enjoyment given by these animals
They are special,and should remain special,They deserve the attention to detail and to keep there connection to there homeland,even in captivity
I like the history in the locales and no one has the right to undo it all.

Good luck with the babies in the future

 

[SoCaliSon]

My McLovin' is a Cross... A spectacular one at that. And the babies that are do out any day will be Nosy Be x Ambilobe as well. Do I understand the importance of keeping bloodlines true? I do... I think it is a great aspect of the hobby, that efforts should be taken to preserve. Do I think it is wrong or unethical to knowingly breed one Local to another?... Not at All!!! As long as you do it responsibly, screen and sell to your buyers responsibly there is nothing wrong with it.

In my case... I have been thinking about how I will handle my females... And rest assured... The females especially will not go to any home that has not been throughly grilled by me, and that completely understand that this is not a breeder pet. For these females I will most likely be willing to give them away to a home that can convince me that she will not be bred.

This is a touchy subject... that I can see both sides on.

I still think that people are way to gung ho about local purity when nobody can prove that anyone of their chams is actually a pure anything. I wanna know how many purists, are breeding and selling crosses unknowingly. I would be willing to bet it happens a lot. I see funky looking "Pure bloods" around a lot. It may open up anther can of worms...but hey ... I always learn something when the discussion comes up... But I still think there is too many factors in nature on the main island of madagascar(and even in some of the closer islands, to ensure that any animal that comes in from any part of the island, has pure blood... only found on that part of the island. We talk about them as if their are borders preventing any Locale from movement in nature. Never underestimate what nature will do next.

May the Person who can Solidly Prove that their Ambilobe has purely blood from the Ambilobe region of Madagascar throw the next stone! The fact is not even the importer opening the box can prove that.

Me personally I like the way my Blue Bared Panthers looks... I am going to mate it to a female I know has brothers with nice blue bars... and make some nice babies... Forget all this blurred around the edges fancy schmancy bull crap.... I just wanna create attractive looking chams.

~Joe

 

[Syn]

I truly appreciate the honesty you put into your work, however it's not your job to make sure that your buyer isn't going to breed them off again! If you were to do that you'd have to be psychic or a lie detector.. You are doing what you LOVE, keep at it!! Don't let the people on here who just want pure chameleons to be bred get you down.

For all of you people who get wildcaught shipments... you can't tell me that you knew for SURE what each female was, that one local didn't get into another, that TWENTY YEARS AGO an Ambilobe didn't mix with some close locale! You have no idea 100% for SURE unless you get a time machine or do extensive scientific research to PROVE that these genes are Ambilobe and Ambilobe ONLY! For all you know a female ambilobe could be 90% Ambilobe and 10% of some other close locale.

Oh no, you're an Ambilobe female, I'm a so-and-so locale.. no thanks.

One of these days I'm going to go to Madagascar and move chameleon locales around just to mess with you guys. Nosy faly females can visit Ankaramy!

EDIT: It WILL happen eventually. Everything will start looking like everything else. It's like the wild dogs running around in our streets now, you don't see them picking the same type of dog to have puppies with! I don't want to start anything, but it there ANY WAY YOU can prove that your bloodlines are 100% pure for the past 20 years, or can you only guarantee purity since they've been in YOUR bloodlines?

Everyone on the planet keeping these animals,is playing god with them.

Everyone keeping a male chihuahua and a female greyhound is playing god with them. Think about all of the mutt dogs.

 

[Dean Pulcini]

Indeed their are geological roadblocks that keep locales just that locales such as Islands, rivers, mountain ranges, oceans and distance. There have been specific locales for hundreds or even thousands of years for a reason. Could a faly swim to mitsio not likely could a ambilobe have bred with a ambanja yes but not on a regular basis.

Dean

 

[TreelionsUK]

"It WILL happen eventually. Everything will start looking like everything else"

And thats what we should be trying to prevent!!and why this is such an important issue.

i'd like to think In 20 years that you would still be able to see a true example of each locale,if no one works to keep it clean then it won't be possible

At the end of the day its honesty from the people you work with to buy your animals,and if you trust that person or not

 

[Syn]

Even if it's not on a regular basis, it still happens. There are some risk-locales such as ambilobe and ambanja, I'm not sure what else there is, but what if your WC's family tree looked something like this, but you couldn't tell the difference because the "crosses" were eventually diluted? (Sorry for the bad handwriting)

Sorry for the erasing marks, but what I was trying to do ended up not making much sense so I removed a couple things.

 

[Syn]

"It WILL happen eventually. Everything will start looking like everything else"

And thats what we should be trying to prevent!!and why this is such an important issue.

You can't prevent species from moving to another location. True, there are some things preventing one locale from getting to another, but there is that rare case that one gets across, or one hitches a ride on a boat somehow, perhaps they are hiding in a tree someone has cut down and moved to another city.. you never know, the possibilities are endless.

Does anyone know the morph-risk-locales? Ambilobe, Ambanja are two of them.. which other locales can easily get to one another?

 

[Lyneeso]

Me personally I like the way my Blue Bared Panthers looks... I am going to mate it to a female I know has brothers with nice blue bars... and make some nice babies... Forget all this blurred around the edges fancy schmancy bull crap.... I just wanna create attractive looking chams.

~Joe

This is what it boils down to in my mind. Thanks Joe, couldn't say it better myself and had to quote ya!

 

[eisentrauti]

And that's the problem here: If chameleoco would say sth like this before, all here would throw the virtual stone on him...and now...nothing happens.
If you keep those cross lines just for you, I wouldn't say anything, but if there are more of them outside the risk for unwanted crosses grows and grows

 

[TreelionsUK]

You can't prevent species from moving to another location. True, there are some things preventing one locale from getting to another, but there is that rare case that one gets across, or one hitches a ride on a boat somehow, perhaps they are hiding in a tree someone has cut down and moved to another city.. you never know, the possibilities are endless.

Does anyone know the morph-risk-locales? Ambilobe, Ambanja are two of them.. which other locales can easily get to one another?

Yes but nature's worked pretty well so far for the last 100,000's of years

This is the thing tho Morph risk locales?? are they? or are they specific to there area and a different locale all together,You can loosely sort of group diego's,sambava's,ANDAPA,jofferville together they all look kinda simalar but they are NOT!! thats the point in the mini locales,that group different traits and highlights of the morph together!

 

[Syn]

Yes but nature's worked pretty well so far for the last 100,000's of years

This is the thing tho Morph risk locales?? are they? or are they specific to there area and a different locale all together,You can loosely sort of group diego's,sambava's,ANDAPA,jofferville together they all look kinda simalar but they are NOT!! thats the point in the mini locales,that group different traits and highlights of the morph together!

So what you're telling me is that you can PERSONALLY GUARANTEE that every single panther chameleon in Madagascar has NEVER been breed with another locale?
That's something big to have on your shoulders..

Perhaps the mini locales you speak of are just crosses that eventually became so common in the area, no one thought twice about it..



Wholesellers are the main problem, they never screen who they are selling to and what they will be doing with them. Not every breeder is honest about what they have.. :\

 

[eisentrauti]

You are right Syn, they are a risk, but why even make this risk larger to spread them by selective breeding of crossed forms ?

 

[Syn]

You are right Syn, they are a risk, but why even make this risk larger to spread them by selective breeding of crossed forms ?

I never said it was right to spread the crosses, I was simply saying it happens in nature often enough. No, it doesn't help that people do make crosses but if they are honest about it..

This thought just came to my mind.. if you are selling a cross to someone and they lie about what they are going to do with it, what's going to stop them from buying a non-cross of one sort and a non-cross of another and just crossing them eventually?

 

[TreelionsUK]

So what you're telling me is that you can PERSONALLY GUARANTEE that every single panther chameleon in Madagascar has NEVER been breed with another locale?
That's something big to have on your shoulders..

Perhaps the mini locales you speak of are just crosses that eventually became so common in the area, no one thought twice about it..



Wholesellers are the main problem, they never screen who they are selling to and what they will be doing with them. Not every breeder is honest about what they have.. :\

what you chatting aboutim not gonna gaurantee anything

The mini locales are natural morphing of the traits.relative to the area they are collected from...thats the whole point

 

[SoCaliSon]

I can understand how the geological roadblocks are most likely the reason that different color variations take place in different areas over thousands of years... But there are so many factors, including human interference that undoubtedly has been taking place over there for hundreds of years as well(or last least a lot since the '80s). People have been picking these things up and moving them around the island for who knows how long... 1 misplaced Pardalis on the island, and One Copulation....That's all it would take right? In my eyes, it would be silly to think that hasn't happened, It seems to me with all the exporting that takes place... That would happen a whole lot more than most of us would like to think about.

I do enjoy observing the different variations that occur, but I still believe that instead of putting solid labels of Area's on our panthers... I think color description is a lot more of an honest way to approach it, maybe not as flashy and catchy to the eye of a buyer, Then when your talking about them you can say... "This color variation is most commonly found is this region." "This bloodline is a good representation of what you will find in this region." Afterall all it takes to make an Ambilobe is some "know it all" to point at it and say that's an Ambilobe. =)

I dunno... I am still not the most knowledgable in the area... I just really enjoy thinking about it... Cause I really think I still stand somewhere in the middle of the line, I really do see both sides of the coin here.

 

[Syn]

So in other words you are saying you agree with the fact that there can be crosses naturally? Or are you holding to your word that "Yes but nature's worked pretty well so far for the last 100,000's of years"?

I can understand how the geological roadblocks are most likely the reason that different color variations take place in different areas over thousands of years... But there are so many factors, including human interference that undoubtedly has been taking place over there for hundreds of years as well(or last least a lot since the '80s). People have been picking these things up and moving them around the island for who knows how long... 1 misplaced Pardalis on the island, and One Copulation....That's all it would take right? In my eyes, it would be silly to think that hasn't happened, It seems to me with all the exporting that takes place... That would happen a whole lot more than most of us would like to think about.

Great points!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

 

[eisentrauti]

I don't know if some people here have had some biology in school, but it has to be clear that there are some things in the nature ( rivers, mountains, wrong habitat etc.) which can seperate the different specimens of a species which can cause locals, subspecies or new species

 

[TreelionsUK]

So in other words you are saying you agree with the fact that there can be crosses naturally? Or are you holding to your word that "Yes but nature's worked pretty well so far for the last 100,000's of years"?

Yes but they are a morph not a cross if you can get your head round that