cage bottom
- Thread starter davieb769
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JoshCrane1
New Member
x2 makes cleaning poo easy too.
Clifford
New Member
I use papertowels too. I change it weekly.
CheekyChameleon
New Member
i have to agree with everyone.... very easy to clean and i cleaned mine out everytime my veiled pooped on it ... Cheap and easy! 
Kat77
New Member
If you're using paper towels, I would change them daily. Weekly, you're going to get a LOT of bacteria, mold and fungus growing on and underneath those paper towels. You don't want feeders running around in bacteria.
I've forgotten for two or three days and seen mold. I would change them out daily for sure.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
How often you change the papertowel will depend on the environment they are exposed too. Mold and Bacteria and fungus might grow on papertowles for those people misting all over the place. Mold needs damp to grow. My paper towels are never wet. So my paper towels NEVER grow mold. And I dont let feeders go all over the show either, so there are no feeders near the paper towels.
I choose to change my paper towels after each poop, but Ive left them a week before and certainly there would be no issue with that.
How often you change your towels will depend on the conditions the towels are in.
Kat77
New Member
I don't see how you can mist your enclosure thoroughly and not have any water or mositure touch the cage floor. The "conditions" you speak of are what most people have drainage systems for. Moisture on the enclosure floor is unavoidable, and I'm interested in how you keep your floor bone dry.
dj special k
New Member
Yeah... If I didn't have a drainage system or water catch system, i probably would have a very big puddle in my room. I need to mist my cages until it's basically simulating rain because it takes a long time for my chams to get used to the water and then start drinking from the leaves and the droplets from the top. I don't see them drink if i were to just mist them for a few minutes enough to just get the leaves wet with droplets.
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
keeping towels bone dry is not very hard at all. you dont have to soak the tank down to provide drinking water. even if you have to water the enclosure longer then some because you chams take a while to get excited and drink, you still should not have enough water that falls to the ground that wont evap long before bacteria develops.......
and if your timing things right, you wont feed while the water is still evap, so no crix around poop and water and mold, the only thing that should be cleaned everyday is poop..... even then not everyone cleans poop everyday
after you've kept chams for while, you'll notice you dont need to provide as much drinking water as you orig thought...... and drainage may not be an issue
you'll notice what times of the day your cham likes to drink
you'll notice where they like to poop!
you'll know how many feeders per day
or if you wanna go hog wild on the water a live plant will act as an appropriate basin
when you put all of that together you wont need to worry about all this mess.
you should have enough surface area from the foliage in the enclosure to provide ample drinking water, esp if you mist 2x a day.
if you're precise you dont need draining.
every cham is different, and keepers have diff native temp and humid levels so everyone is diff
and if your timing things right, you wont feed while the water is still evap, so no crix around poop and water and mold, the only thing that should be cleaned everyday is poop..... even then not everyone cleans poop everyday
after you've kept chams for while, you'll notice you dont need to provide as much drinking water as you orig thought...... and drainage may not be an issue
you'll notice what times of the day your cham likes to drink
you'll notice where they like to poop!
you'll know how many feeders per day
or if you wanna go hog wild on the water a live plant will act as an appropriate basin
when you put all of that together you wont need to worry about all this mess.
you should have enough surface area from the foliage in the enclosure to provide ample drinking water, esp if you mist 2x a day.
if you're precise you dont need draining.
every cham is different, and keepers have diff native temp and humid levels so everyone is diff
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Kat77
New Member
So can I ask then why people who have been keeping chameleons for years even bother with drainage systems? Wouldn't they be superfluous if "experienced" chameleon keepers never wet their cage bottoms? I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm truly wondering. It doesn't make much sense to me. I've seen so many threads on this forum about the best way to make a drainage system. I'm sure not all of those people making said suggestions were novices.
The enclosure I have the most trouble keeping water off the floor of is the Melleri. There is so much water involved in the misting of that enclosure that there is no way to keep the floor dry. I've not met a keeper of Melleri that doesn't use drainage.
And how about people who mist their enclosures fifteen minutes at a time? It isn't as if people who use drainage systems would otherwise have water overflowing from their enclosures, and I refuse to believe that wetting the enclosure bottom is exclusively a novice thing.
The enclosure I have the most trouble keeping water off the floor of is the Melleri. There is so much water involved in the misting of that enclosure that there is no way to keep the floor dry. I've not met a keeper of Melleri that doesn't use drainage.
And how about people who mist their enclosures fifteen minutes at a time? It isn't as if people who use drainage systems would otherwise have water overflowing from their enclosures, and I refuse to believe that wetting the enclosure bottom is exclusively a novice thing.
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reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
re read my thread please..........
we've been down this rd before you and i
i didnt mention experience i mentioned time.
its possible to do it both ways, its easy to just let it fly and have it drain, thats automation. i automated my lights and thats it. i work for a home automation company by the way.
i did things manually, and i enjoyed it.
im talking about providing drinking water kat, not water for humidity.
when i mist for 15 min, i actually only spray every 10sec or so, and its a mist not a spray, chams lap water every few seconds, you should mist accordingly. i enjoyed getting in sync with my chams, knowing when to spray the mist right before they started lapping
misting for 15 min doesnt mean providing constant mist for 15 min....think about that
people that use drainage most of the time have automated misting systems that provide constant mist.... im sure if they could they would have the system actually provide mist every few seconds, but most cant for a bunch of reasons.
if you're not using automated misting you shouldnt need drainage when MISTING ( not spraying ) 2x a day
i had 8 veiled in screen cages above my hardwood floors, computer, plasma, never leaked over
so when truly misting to provide water, you spray the surface near the cham right before they lap and dont waste any, most of the time not enough makes it to the floor to need drainage ( not every one has time for this )
when misting to provide humidity..... the idea if to provide water to evap into the air and humidify it. not to have a pool of water on the floor.
and its possible to mist for humid to meet the needs of your animal without needing drainage. like i said towels can get wet, sometimes they do, but they will dry in a short time
we've been down this rd before you and i
i didnt mention experience i mentioned time.
its possible to do it both ways, its easy to just let it fly and have it drain, thats automation. i automated my lights and thats it. i work for a home automation company by the way.
i did things manually, and i enjoyed it.
im talking about providing drinking water kat, not water for humidity.
when i mist for 15 min, i actually only spray every 10sec or so, and its a mist not a spray, chams lap water every few seconds, you should mist accordingly. i enjoyed getting in sync with my chams, knowing when to spray the mist right before they started lapping
misting for 15 min doesnt mean providing constant mist for 15 min....think about that
people that use drainage most of the time have automated misting systems that provide constant mist.... im sure if they could they would have the system actually provide mist every few seconds, but most cant for a bunch of reasons.
if you're not using automated misting you shouldnt need drainage when MISTING ( not spraying ) 2x a day
i had 8 veiled in screen cages above my hardwood floors, computer, plasma, never leaked over
so when truly misting to provide water, you spray the surface near the cham right before they lap and dont waste any, most of the time not enough makes it to the floor to need drainage ( not every one has time for this )
when misting to provide humidity..... the idea if to provide water to evap into the air and humidify it. not to have a pool of water on the floor.
and its possible to mist for humid to meet the needs of your animal without needing drainage. like i said towels can get wet, sometimes they do, but they will dry in a short time
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Kat77
New Member
I re-read your post, I understand what you mean. I understood in the first place .
I'm not saying that in my enclosures my paper towels are SO SOPPING wet that they don't dry between mistings, but I still think that changing them daily is a good idea. Maybe I'm an insane cage cleaner, it must be in my nature. Weekly, whether they're wet the whole time or not, just seems like a real bad idea (again, maybe I'm just a cleaning fanatic). The weekly paper towel changing idea is how this entire discussion started. I guess I would just never leave them in that long.
And for the record, I hand mist the Melleri, and use drainage on that enclosure. No paper towels there.
. I'm not saying that in my enclosures my paper towels are SO SOPPING wet that they don't dry between mistings, but I still think that changing them daily is a good idea. Maybe I'm an insane cage cleaner, it must be in my nature. Weekly, whether they're wet the whole time or not, just seems like a real bad idea (again, maybe I'm just a cleaning fanatic). The weekly paper towel changing idea is how this entire discussion started. I guess I would just never leave them in that long.
And for the record, I hand mist the Melleri, and use drainage on that enclosure. No paper towels there.
sttines
Member
Kat 77, I am so glad someone here is willing to press the issue of hydration ( and this reply is not directed at you). It is one of the basics of husbandry that people seem to overlook. Chameleons kept indoors always pose the problem of water and drainage thus the question of flooring, substrates, paper towels, etc. It is just one of the many things one needs to be prepared for with this hobby. You have to be inventive and a very hard worker, even with just a couple of chameleons. If you have the slightest lazy streak, get goldfish, the 99 cent ones( although they deserve the best care, too). People are not willing to do the work and this is why so many of you will come and go and new hobbyists come along and then fall by the wayside because chameleons are a lot of WORK!!!!
In the past 11 years I have tried all types of water methods, amounts of water, humidifiers, sprayers, everything under the sun. It has been in the past 7 years that I can say I have had minimal illnesses because I consider hydration to be of utmost importance, to translate; AUTOMATED MISTINGS and long sessions several times daily. I do this outside and in. Drainage is a constant battle indoors. Water is a very smart "organism" and it will find it's way to the outside world one way or another so it takes some thought. But it is the sacrifice one makes for the chameleon's health. I do not discriminate between species either. The species some may call montanes get the same amount of water that the so called lowlands get. So whether you are a veiled, panther, oustalet, or a montium or quad, the misters run for a long time for all. Do not underestimate what a chameleon will need and I have seen panthers drink longer than some melleri. My one exception is babies and they get automatic misting for very brief periods but several times daily, very young and tiny babies I spray manually.
So to make my point, a good thorough watering will completely soak a paper towel. Save your paper towels for clean up and concentrate on the waterings and their importance. If there is someone who manages to use paper toweling and keep it dry, you are not providing enough water.
In the past 11 years I have tried all types of water methods, amounts of water, humidifiers, sprayers, everything under the sun. It has been in the past 7 years that I can say I have had minimal illnesses because I consider hydration to be of utmost importance, to translate; AUTOMATED MISTINGS and long sessions several times daily. I do this outside and in. Drainage is a constant battle indoors. Water is a very smart "organism" and it will find it's way to the outside world one way or another so it takes some thought. But it is the sacrifice one makes for the chameleon's health. I do not discriminate between species either. The species some may call montanes get the same amount of water that the so called lowlands get. So whether you are a veiled, panther, oustalet, or a montium or quad, the misters run for a long time for all. Do not underestimate what a chameleon will need and I have seen panthers drink longer than some melleri. My one exception is babies and they get automatic misting for very brief periods but several times daily, very young and tiny babies I spray manually.
So to make my point, a good thorough watering will completely soak a paper towel. Save your paper towels for clean up and concentrate on the waterings and their importance. If there is someone who manages to use paper toweling and keep it dry, you are not providing enough water.
Kat77
New Member
I completely agree. I was pretty baffled by the "dry paper towel" tactic. I have never thought about not making a mess while misting, the hydration of the animal was always what was important.
reyesjoshuacruz
Established Member
im missing something I guess, what good does the water on the floor do for the chams hydration needs?
if the water is on the floor.............. the chameleon didnt drink it.........how did it benefit the thirsty cham?
everyone has their own opinions and methods. but please tell me why you HAVE to end up with water on the floor to address the precise hydration a cham needs?
my point is that a keeper can most certainly provide more than adequate hydration, hand misting 2x a day with no need for drainage.
do you guys know what the size of a chameleons stomach is?
enough to fit a few crickets....... do you provide your chams with 10x more crickets per feeding than they need or will fit for that matter? do you have a drainage system for the excess crickets?.......no because you provide the number of crickets they need/use/will fit
why do you provide more water than needed while servicing hydration needs?
measure how much water is used in these misting systems or handing misting that ends up with water on the floor
now compare the volume of water you provided, to the volume the chameleon needs/uses/will fit ????????
hopefully you can see where im going..................
if the water is on the floor.............. the chameleon didnt drink it.........how did it benefit the thirsty cham?
everyone has their own opinions and methods. but please tell me why you HAVE to end up with water on the floor to address the precise hydration a cham needs?
my point is that a keeper can most certainly provide more than adequate hydration, hand misting 2x a day with no need for drainage.
do you guys know what the size of a chameleons stomach is?
enough to fit a few crickets....... do you provide your chams with 10x more crickets per feeding than they need or will fit for that matter? do you have a drainage system for the excess crickets?.......no because you provide the number of crickets they need/use/will fit
why do you provide more water than needed while servicing hydration needs?
measure how much water is used in these misting systems or handing misting that ends up with water on the floor
now compare the volume of water you provided, to the volume the chameleon needs/uses/will fit ????????
hopefully you can see where im going..................
BocaJan
New Member
When I spray, no matter how fine I adjust the sprayer, I get a mist that goes throughout my whole habitat. It is how I get humidity. The leaves are holders for moisture, but my chams don't start lapping until everything is pretty wet. My leaves drop the water down...making drips that hit the paper towels. I change my p. towels every 2 to 3 days depending on the poo. If I don't change the towels that often They start to turn colors on the edges - a gold/brown color. I figure that isn't good for my cham so I change the paper towels and wipe the bottom.
Good luck in fine tuning your misting. Wish I could be as precise as you, but I can't and feel that my 4 chams are getting an adequate amount of water.
Good luck in fine tuning your misting. Wish I could be as precise as you, but I can't and feel that my 4 chams are getting an adequate amount of water.
beenpanced
New Member
I personally have never, not once, been able to mist while keeping the bottom dry. The only way I could see someone doing that is by squirting water straight into their chams mouth! I guess if you really did do one squirt every 10-20 seconds you might at least be able to keep the bottom from being soaked but it would still get damp, for sure. But if you were to do that you would be all day just making sure your cham got its proper amount of water. I don't have time like that to waste so I'm automated (Mist King, best thing since sliced bread) and I use a drainage system. No paper towel waste, easy to clean bucket, and I don't have to worry if my guys are drinking because I know they have access to water with or without me. But hey, everyones different......
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