Cage size Debate (Kinda). Experts please read.

[cyberlocc]

Okay guys I am going to question something, that is somewhat a "Rule". Everywhere I look I see people say 48 inch tall cage is minimum for a male panther. That is from all the everyday keepers and a lot of care sheets.

However every once in awhile I see a difference to this opinion. I have seen some very experienced people in this hobby, straight throw this out of the window. I have seen the Kammers using 30 inch tall cages, for there own chams and selling that cage to customers. I have seen Bills Atriums, I have seen Chris A. using glass tanks that are 36 tall.

I have also seen a lot of good points made on the subject. That chams do not use vertical space much, but yet they do use horizontal. In my limited experience I have seen the same behavior. They also rarely go to the bottom or anywhere near it.

I have heard a few times a similar thing, "If you use a smaller cage for a male Panther, make sure he is up high at the top of his cage". I wonder, does this play a role here?

Where did the 48" inch minimum come from, who started it and why. Were they setting a 48 inch on the floor and thus thought that was the minimum cage size needed? Less so for the fact that they need "Vertical Space" and more so they need the upper level to fill safer above your eye level?

I am in the midst of designing my cham room. I want my chams to be healthy and happy, However in my room in my position, I do not have vertical space that most do. I would like to stack baby cages, under adult cages. To do so the maximum size I can use height wise is 36 inches.

So is 36 inches height, if the top of the cage is as high as can be (about 5 feet up, from the floor). Will a cham really miss the 12 inches of the bottom?. To me the plant live seems to be the end of there range, what if by using more plants and lower pots the plant line is extended. Would the cham not get the same usable space.

In my situation, having 45 inch cages simply means too much wasted space. I wish that wasn't the case so I wouldn't have to question this, but it is so I am.

And I ask your honest opinion, for a panther is 36 inches tall really not enough? If it was the same size just as a male cage just a lower height? Also for most of you have way more experience then me, ask your selves honestly, have you ever seen your cham use the bottom half of there 48 tall? Or the bottom 12 inches?

 

[Andee]

I'd say if you are making the height requirement smaller, you MUST go with a larger in width and depth cage. I think the reason we did 48 inches was because it's easier to fit in areas the narrower it is, yet still gives them plenty of space. (Just my personal opinion) Narrower cages take up less room, but they still need the same amount of space that a 48 inch tall 2ft x 2ft cage would give. Therefore making them wider and longer would work.

 

[distortionz]

I didn't read everything.. But with most of the larger scale respected breeders I've spoke with.. They keep female Panthers in 16x16x30 and males in 18x18x36.. And only use the 24x24x48 for wild caught or large boys.

 

[Andee]

But then again I say 24x24x48 isn't necessary and yet my panther would be incredibly unhappy in anything smaller. I think it also depends on the chameleon a little bit. Breeding set ups however are different than keeper set ups. Keepers usually go for the largest cage possible. Ryker I know with how active he is, would happily live in a 9ftx9ftx12ft enclosure and yet all I can afford at the moment when it comes to space is the usual 2ftx2ftx4ft cage. I would love to put him in something that is at least the length of a wall. He is super active, always getting into trouble. I love him, I wish so bad I could give him something huge because he would make full use of it I know it for sure. But I also think he's a bit strange in general. I do think certain chameleons, even captive bred specimens are meant to be in large enclosures. However I do not think all chameleons need this.

 

[cyberlocc]

I'd say if you are making the height requirement smaller, you MUST go with a larger in width and depth cage. I think the reason we did 48 inches was because it's easier to fit in areas the narrower it is, yet still gives them plenty of space. (Just my personal opinion) Narrower cages take up less room, but they still need the same amount of space that a 48 inch tall 2ft x 2ft cage would give. Therefore making them wider and longer would work.

Well see but that is the thing I keep seeing. Chameleons dont use the space of a 24x24x48. They use the 24x24 they do not use the vertical height, they stay at the top most of the time. Again I have limited experience, so IDK just going by what I have read from a lot of very experienced people.

See and then most of the time, the care sheets and even people will say you can skimp on width a bit but not on height? That is why I ask, how often do you see your chams actually using the lower parts of there cage?

If they do not use the bottom half of the cage, (which seems to be the pattern I see) then a new question arrives. Why? Do they not use it due to its location in the room or the plants or the cages actual height?

I didn't read everything.. But with most of the larger scale respected breeders I've spoke with.. They keep female Panthers in 16x16x30 and males in 18x18x36.. And only use the 24x24x48 for wild caught or large boys.

Yep that is what I have been seeing as well.

 

[Andee]

They could not use it due to it's location. My panther uses his entire cage. As does my jackson. However they are up to my waist with what they sit on and I'm not sure how many people do that. I have seen people skimp on the cages width and length too, I would rather shave a little off the top and add extra to the sides, I agree. But I personally wouldn't go any shorter than 42 inches for my own chameleons. I'm not sure with yours, yours may not use their entire cage so it may be totally fine to go down to 36. However I would rather just put extra on the side with my babies. However I understand that you don't have the space... yet how many baby cages are you putting in that the adult cages need to be so much shorter?

 

[cyberlocc]

But then again I say 24x24x48 isn't necessary and yet my panther would be incredibly unhappy in anything smaller. I think it also depends on the chameleon a little bit. Breeding set ups however are different than keeper set ups. Keepers usually go for the largest cage possible. Ryker I know with how active he is, would happily live in a 9ftx9ftx12ft enclosure and yet all I can afford at the moment when it comes to space is the usual 2ftx2ftx4ft cage. I would love to put him in something that is at least the length of a wall. He is super active, always getting into trouble. I love him, I wish so bad I could give him something huge because he would make full use of it I know it for sure. But I also think he's a bit strange in general. I do think certain chameleons, even captive bred specimens are meant to be in large enclosures. However I do not think all chameleons need this.

Well thats where things get complicated for me . I want to breed small time, However I want to do it right.

Now please everyone when I say this please take no offense!. I like to do things right, and I do not see Keeping babies in a tub from walmart as doing things right. This is where in Lies my issue.

I want to have a few chams to keep as pets ect, and have a couple of females to breed. So the 6 or so chams I want to keep (I like all panthers decided to go with 6 max though hard.) There room I can afford for a 24x24x48, However fast forward to I want to breed, and I want to do it the right way (again please dont take offense) So for me right is Dragon strand nursery's and at least 32 of them (well 8 sets). That alone is another 8 feet of wall space, on top of the 12 feet for the adults (the high cages leave no stacking room)

Then of course I will be vetting my buyers, and keeping my babies for 3 months till sale. So I will likely get stuck with some juvis in waiting for sales. So add another, 4 feet of wall space for 8 compact cages. That is 24 feet of wall space, I simply dont have that.

However with my idea, I can do all of this (and actually have more cages) with 16 feet of wall space. That is a lot more manageable

 

[cyberlocc]

They could not use it due to it's location. My panther uses his entire cage. As does my jackson. However they are up to my waist with what they sit on and I'm not sure how many people do that. I have seen people skimp on the cages width and length too, I would rather shave a little off the top and add extra to the sides, I agree. But I personally wouldn't go any shorter than 42 inches for my own chameleons. I'm not sure with yours, yours may not use their entire cage so it may be totally fine to go down to 36. However I would rather just put extra on the side with my babies. However I understand that you don't have the space... yet how many baby cages are you putting in that the adult cages need to be so much shorter?

Well just answered that (probably when you were posting). The issue is my Cham room ceiling height is 68 inches, so a 36 inch with 16 inchs below will barely fit with the lights in.

If I used wire shelves (would need wire shelf able cages) I could go to 40 inches high, and would love to. No one makes 40 inch high cages though so its either 36 or 46.

I played with and liked the idea of using the Atruims, its just that with the size they are shelving becomes a new issue. Even with custom built shelves the baby cages wont take up the 6 feet, so space is again wasted.

I could go with glass exoterras and buy me some baby space, there again leads to new challenges though .

 

[Andee]

Stupid lights ruin everything >3> even for me. I will be interested in seeing what some of the expert breeders have to say in this thread. I've never bred babies before, just taken care of Ryker and the rescues. The rescues tend to use less of their cages if they are veileds from what I've noticed. Panthers I've never had a rescue. My single jackson rescue Hope, is ridiculously active considering her condition... I constantly think I've lost her because she's hiding behind one of the pots. XD

 

[DeremensisBlue]

The 48" minimum height recommendation came from a time when the only cage sizes available were the 48" high, the 36" high, and the 30" high cages. The 36" tall was only 18" wide and the 30" tall was 16" wide. So it was really the width that made these other heights less desirable.
The advice that the 48" high cage was the best option for male panthers morphed into 48" being the minimum cage height. This is the natural order of advice. As it gets passed down from generation to generation it becomes more black and white, simplified, and much more definitive.
The idea that height is more important than width is an over simplification of the chameleon's needs. Chameleons are horizontal moving animals that enjoy height relative to the world around them. But that truth is much harder to understand and communicate so it gets simplified to "height is more important" as the advice gets passed around.

 

[cyberlocc]

The 48" minimum height recommendation came from a time when the only cage sizes available were the 48" high, the 36" high, and the 30" high cages. The 36" tall was only 18" wide and the 30" tall was 16" wide. So it was really the width that made these other heights less desirable.
The advice that the 48" high cage was the best option for male panthers morphed into 48" being the minimum cage height. This is the natural order of advice. As it gets passed down from generation to generation it becomes more black and white, simplified, and much more definitive.
The idea that height is more important than width is an over simplification of the chameleon's needs. Chameleons are horizontal moving animals that enjoy height relative to the world around them. But that truth is much harder to understand and communicate so it gets simplified to "height is more important" as the advice gets passed around.

So what do you think Bill? 36 inches high enough?

So like if I was able to talk you into making me some Medium Wide and tall breeders at 36 inches high would that be good for an adult male? and Female? (I know females lol.)

Edit: Sounds like a big ole game of telephone lol. .

 

[Scout]

I believe "everyone" refers to 48" being the norm because that's the size of the common XL RetpiBreeze cage.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

So what do you think Bill? 36 inches high enough?

So like if I was able to talk you into making me some Medium Wide and tall breeders at 36 inches high would that be good for an adult male? and Female? (I know females lol.)

A 36" tall cage would be great for the female. If you put the cages on the top shelf you could probably make it work for a male. I have some young males in a Medium Wide, but when they get to their full adult size I feel it will be cramped. In that case, more height can make up for a space limit in width.
(and, yes, a 36" tall Breeder cage is possible!)

 

[cyberlocc]

A 36" tall cage would be great for the female. If you put the cages on the top shelf you could probably make it work for a male. I have some young males in a Medium Wide, but when they get to their full adult size I feel it will be cramped. In that case, more height can make up for a space limit in width.
(and, yes, a 36" tall Breeder cage is possible!)

Well see I limited in both directions lol. I would gladly add more height, but I have very limited height to work with. So you feel a medium wide 36 inch tall breeder would be cramped? What about a 22x22x36 or maybe 40. I may be able to do 40 I have to crunch some numbers again . My issue is the ceiling is sloped and the wall the chams can go on the ceiling from the floor is 69 inches, so 68 ish would be the max I could go up.

 

[Extensionofgreen]

48" provides a good oppertunity for the animal to get up high, assuming the cage or a portion of it is at waist height. That height is probably close to minimum for the height of commonly used ficus trees to give sturdy lateral branches, and that height gives more options for temp/lighting gradients.
Is it mandatory? No. I'd rather place a horizontally oriented cage of lesser height above eye level and use a step stool to access it, as that provides more surface area for the chameleon, to place lights and equipment, and really is providing the lateral space chameleons naturally utilize. I used to use the largest reptariums, and I'd always orient them horizontally, for melleri, and other species.
Now, that being said, unless it's a young chameleon, I'd say bigger in all directions is always better.

 

[Eric Adrignola]

48" provides a good oppertunity for the animal to get up high, assuming the cage or a portion of it is at waist height. That height is probably close to minimum for the height of commonly used ficus trees to give sturdy lateral branches, and that height gives more options for temp/lighting gradients.
Is it mandatory? No. I'd rather place a horizontally oriented cage of lesser height above eye level and use a step stool to access it, as that provides more surface area for the chameleon, to place lights and equipment, and really is providing the lateral space chameleons naturally utilize. I used to use the largest reptariums, and I'd always orient them horizontally, for melleri, and other species.
Now, that being said, unless it's a young chameleon, I'd say bigger in all directions is always better.

This is the biggest plus for a 48" vs a 36" cage - furnishing it.

My cages are all home made 36x24x24 cages. They're well above the ground, over 6' up. but getting trees to fit is a pain.

a 48" tall cage makes it so much easier to fit a good ficus or sheffelera.

 

[nightanole]

My cage is 28"x48"x 7ft tall. So using that as an "unlimited space". I have found that they will use the entire 28x48, but only go up and down about 2ft. They will not hang out at the bottom, and will only climb on top if i leave the door open.

If you are not planting, id say 30-36" high is fine, plus the lights, no matter the vendor, are going to be null by 24" away anyway.

 

[cyberlocc]

Good points guys .

With the tree, that is easily fixable with a 24 inch bonsai .

 

[cyberlocc]

Bumping this, to get some more feedback.

Also some thoughts, So if a Medium Atrium is regarded as fine, it is 28.5x17x30 right? So a 24x18x36 is the same amount of space, so would that be an acceptable size for a panther?

I am pretty much set on Glass at this point. As while my panthers may prefer screen, the other chams I am considering keeping have very high water needs and are better served by glass. (however some of said cages, will need to be Atriums with all clear side, and maybe all of them .)

 

[WAMBO]

I've had my juvi male for 3 weeks. He only goes down to the bottom to eat from the feeder tray, and will actually stay a little higher to catch them from a branch. But that's all my experience with a Panther. At least I'm well acquainted with MBD. I have 3 board certifications, including board Certified Clinical Densitometrist [specializing in the diagnosis and treatment of human MBD, such as osteoporosis and osteomalacia], Radiologist and Nuclear Physician. The Nuclear stuff relies on bone metabolism for our bone scans.