Can chameleons go on planes?

[Orcawhale]

Since 2nd grade I always wanted a Cham, but we were always moving around the world. Right after the most recent move, I seized the opportunity and spent months getting supplies, researching, and getting ready for my very own Chameleon. I finally got Vincent and I've had him for about a month. There is a possibility that my parents work will take us to another country within the next 5 years, and It would break my heart to give Vincent away. In the future would it be possible for Vincent to go on an airplane with me? Or is there possibly another way to safely transport a Chameleon over the ocean?

 

[alphakenc]

Depends on where u flying to,every country got their own regulations,permit and lots paper work,call ahead before u pack him up

 

[Orcawhale]

Depends on where u flying to,every country got their own regulations,permit and lots paper work,call ahead before u pack him up

Yeah, it would most likely be Austria, but are Chameleons okay with the physical pressure of being 10,000 feet in the air?

 

[alphakenc]

Like I said,you might wana contact the airline first,find out their rules n regulations,let them know you dont wana see your chamy pop more eyes out in the mid air , im sure they will let you know if they got a safe place or equipment to take care that problem as long you follow their guidelines

 

[birthnugget]

There's a service called shipyourreptile or something like that, and you could contact them to ship him. I believe their contact info is on the Kammerflage website (chameleonsonly.com) towards the bottom of the home page. You might try asking a neighbour to ship him a few days after you arrive just in case you're delayed. If it's cross country, shipping is prolly gonna be reaaaaallllyyyy expensive... like $100+ expensive, so prepare for that if you choose to go that route. Good luck

 

[jajeanpierre]

Since 2nd grade I always wanted a Cham, but we were always moving around the world. Right after the most recent move, I seized the opportunity and spent months getting supplies, researching, and getting ready for my very own Chameleon. I finally got Vincent and I've had him for about a month. There is a possibility that my parents work will take us to another country within the next 5 years, and It would break my heart to give Vincent away. In the future would it be possible for Vincent to go on an airplane with me? Or is there possibly another way to safely transport a Chameleon over the ocean?

The short answer is that it will prohibitively expensive and very difficult to do. Also, at 5 years of age, the animal will be quite old. The costs are a lot more than just the transport costs.

Where are you located now? A lot will depend on where you are and where you will relocate to. What species is it? Where did you buy it? Is it captive bred or wild caught? If captive bred, do you have documentation to prove that? If wild caught, you will need the original CITES permits for when it was imported into the country you are in now.

If you are in the US, you will need a ton of paperwork and it is not cheap. Other countries will require most of the same paperwork, but they often do not charge for it. US Fish and Wildlife is a nightmare to deal with. If you are in the US, they are the people to start with.

As far as I know, all chameleons are governed by CITES, which is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. There is a huge difference in how animals and animal parts move across borders depending on whether they are CITES Appendix I or CITES Appendix II. A HUGE difference. CITES I animals are things like rhinoceroses and their parts, elephant ivory--highly endangered and heavily regulated animals. If CITES I, you will need not only a CITES Export permit, but a CITES Import permit for the country you are going to. Permits are issued for only a certain amount of time and everything has to be coordinated.

Last year, I needed several affidavits for a CITES I import. More $$$$. Lots more $$$$$.

First you need to find out if your animal is CITES I or CITES II.

Next, you will need to find out if the importing country has requirements for importing the species you have. I believe places like Australia simply do not allow the import of any chameleons.

Once you know where you are going and when, you need to know which airport you are flying out of. US Fish and Wildlife will need to inspect the shipment (and stamp the CITES Export papers) and they will charge you about $250 fee for that. Other countries might simply stamp the paperwork and not charge you (Canada for example). You must have the export paperwork stamped, etc., by the exporting government agency or your don't have the proper documents to import the animal into the new country.

There are only a few official ports that you can go through into or out of the US. If you fly out of a different city, you might need a Port Exemption Certificate (more $$$$$). You have to make an appointment for inspection of your shipment. The Department of Agriculture might also need to inspect the shipment, but I doubt it for outgoing shipments. Again, if they do, more $$$$$.

That's just the paperwork and is probably not even everything you need.

Last, you can worry about shipping your animal, which was the original question you had. Yes, they cope very well if packed properly, but again, more $$$$$.

Bottom line--find him a new home!

 

[alphakenc]

I belive he is going to Austria,where Arnold Schwarzenegger from ,"I be Back"

 

[jajeanpierre]

Just for fun, here is a form for exporting of a captive bred animal. US Fish and Wildlife take their jobs very seriously and will confiscate if the paperwork isn't correct.

http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-24.pdf

 

[Orcawhale]

The short answer is that it will prohibitively expensive and very difficult to do. Also, at 5 years of age, the animal will be quite old. The costs are a lot more than just the transport costs.

Where are you located now? A lot will depend on where you are and where you will relocate to. What species is it? Where did you buy it? Is it captive bred or wild caught? If captive bred, do you have documentation to prove that? If wild caught, you will need the original CITES permits for when it was imported into the country you are in now.

If you are in the US, you will need a ton of paperwork and it is not cheap. Other countries will require most of the same paperwork, but they often do not charge for it. US Fish and Wildlife is a nightmare to deal with. If you are in the US, they are the people to start with.

As far as I know, all chameleons are governed by CITES, which is the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species. There is a huge difference in how animals and animal parts move across borders depending on whether they are CITES Appendix I or CITES Appendix II. A HUGE difference. CITES I animals are things like rhinoceroses and their parts, elephant ivory--highly endangered and heavily regulated animals. If CITES I, you will need not only a CITES Export permit, but a CITES Import permit for the country you are going to. Permits are issued for only a certain amount of time and everything has to be coordinated.

Last year, I needed several affidavits for a CITES I import. More $$$$. Lots more $$$$$.

First you need to find out if your animal is CITES I or CITES II.

Next, you will need to find out if the importing country has requirements for importing the species you have. I believe places like Australia simply do not allow the import of any chameleons.

Once you know where you are going and when, you need to know which airport you are flying out of. US Fish and Wildlife will need to inspect the shipment (and stamp the CITES Export papers) and they will charge you about $250 fee for that. Other countries might simply stamp the paperwork and not charge you (Canada for example). You must have the export paperwork stamped, etc., by the exporting government agency or your don't have the proper documents to import the animal into the new country.

There are only a few official ports that you can go through into or out of the US. If you fly out of a different city, you might need a Port Exemption Certificate (more $$$$$). You have to make an appointment for inspection of your shipment. The Department of Agriculture might also need to inspect the shipment, but I doubt it for outgoing shipments. Again, if they do, more $$$$$.

That's just the paperwork and is probably not even everything you need.

Last, you can worry about shipping your animal, which was the original question you had. Yes, they cope very well if packed properly, but again, more $$$$$.

Bottom line--find him a new home!

Alright, that sounds good, thank you so much for the awesome answer, Ill copy and paste this into my notes in case I need it! Thank you, I would probably be moving from Virginia, to Austria (next to Germany). It won't be a problem for at least another year and a half. Thanks again!

 

[alphakenc]

Yeah, it would most likely be Austria, but are Chameleons okay with the physical pressure of being 10,000 feet in the air?

Now U got a choice to figure this out,money paper work like I mentioned before,unless ur parents are diplomatic from Austria

 

[Orcawhale]

Just for fun, here is a form for exporting of a captive bred animal. US Fish and Wildlife take their jobs very seriously and will confiscate if the paperwork isn't correct.

http://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-24.pdf

lol, wow lots of writing, my Cham is worth it though thank you!

 

[aeolis23]

Keep in mind that lots of chameleons don't even make it to their 5th year. And even if he does, it might cost you a lot for the short amount of time you'll gain extra with him.

Of course I hope he does and that you can safely take him with you!! Just saying so you at least keep it in mind that it can happen..

Good luck with the paperwork!

 

[jajeanpierre]

lol, wow lots of writing, my Cham is worth it though thank you!

You really have no idea what you are dealing with when you step into US Fish and Wildlife's world. Honest, they are amazing in their ineptitude. They don't even know what forms/permits they need.

I once brought two different shipments of parrots (CITES II) across the border from Canada. The first shipment was a wild caught cockatoo that had been a pet of a couple who had moved to the US from Saudi Arabia. Because I was bringing my pet birds back and forth between Canada and Saudi Arabia in the summers, I had a good relationship with the manager of CITES in Saudi Arabia. I talked him into giving me a CITES Export permit for this cockatoo for me to bring to Canada, quarantine in Canada and then ship to the owners in the US.

Once he had cleared quarantine in Canada, I checked and double checked with the US Fish and Wildlife office who would be inspecting the shipment (Buffalo) exactly what paperwork I needed and believed I had everything in order. I had a CITES Re-Export permit from Canada, health certificates, Port Exemption permits--everything they told me I needed. I drove the bird across the border, had him inspected by US Fish and Wildlife, papers stamped, money paid, drove a few miles to the Department of Agriculture for their inspection, more money paid, and then put him on a plane and sent him to his owners.

A few months later I moved from Canada to the US. Since I had just imported a CITES II parrot into the US a few months before, I thought I was sure of what I needed, but being the anal person I am, I double checked a couple of months ahead, a month ahead and then a few days before I was to move. Only then did someone at US Fish and Wildlife let me know I needed ANOTHER permit to satisfy the Wild Bird Conservation Act. All permits from US Fish and Wildlife at the time took about 6 months to get. I was flying in 5 days. Someone pulled some strings and got me the paperwork and I was able to make my appointment and move with my family as planned. The funny thing was that the first shipment of the cockatoo would never have been able to get the Wild Bird Conservation Act permit because he was wild caught. The US Fish and Wildlife manager in Buffalo didn't even know he needed the US Fish and Wildlife WBCA permit.

The rules are obscure, hard to find and no one knows what they are doing. The right hand hasn't a clue what the left hand is doing. They are really hard to deal with.

Just off the top of my head, assuming it is a CITES II species, your costs just for the paperwork on the US side will be somewhere around $500 to start. Add on shipping costs, and I bet it is $300 minimum. You will probably have to somehow get the animal to NY city where it will clear customs, which probably means and overnight in a hotel. Maybe Washington is a designated port. Add the costs of new caging. You have no idea how difficult and expensive this is going to be.

While it might be worth it to you, I doubt you will be paying the bills and few parents will fork our $1200 to $1500 to move an aging lizard with a life expectancy of around 5 years.

The reason I go to all the trouble to explain some of the rules regarding moving endangered species across borders is so people will understand what is necessary and won't just try to cross a border in or out of Canada with endangered species in their possession. It is a federal crime to cross the border without the correct permits--it is smuggling and believe me, US Fish and Wildlife take it very seriously. They confiscate and you are fined or worse. When you cross a land border, you leave the country and then go to the border check point of the new country. That area between is a kind of no man's land. You can't go back into the country you left without going through customs even if you haven't entered the second country. If you don't have the right paperwork and find out at the second country's checkpoint, you can't get your animal back into the US.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Alright, that sounds good, thank you so much for the awesome answer, Ill copy and paste this into my notes in case I need it! Thank you, I would probably be moving from Virginia, to Austria (next to Germany). It won't be a problem for at least another year and a half. Thanks again!

Just remember, that's all off the top of my head. Things might have changed and I've never imported/exported chameleons. The last time I dealt with US Fish and Wildlife was about two years ago importing an ivory sculpture (CITES I) that had been in my family for 60 years and predated CITES. It still cost me about $2000, all to satisfy US FIsh and Wildlife. You will have to do your own research on the US side AND the Austrian side.

 

[Carlton]

A clarification to consider...most chameleon species (especially the species we buy as cbb) are not categorized as endangered or threatened according to CITES. Species are categorized by the level of threat to their wild populations and the market demand for the animal or plant as well as the products made from them. Importing/exporting an elephant ivory statue would require a lot more scrutiny because the elephant is listed under CITES category I endangered. If the shipper has proof that the object was made before the elephant was added to the CITES list it can be "grandfathered" and permitted. Almost all cham species are listed on CITES Appendix II which permits controlled exportation/importation in order to protect their wild populations from over exploitation. The permitting process is different.

 

[jajeanpierre]

A clarification to consider...most chameleon species (especially the species we buy as cbb) are not categorized as endangered or threatened according to CITES. Species are categorized by the level of threat to their wild populations and the market demand for the animal or plant as well as the products made from them. Importing/exporting an elephant ivory statue would require a lot more scrutiny because the elephant is listed under CITES category I endangered. If the shipper has proof that the object was made before the elephant was added to the CITES list it can be "grandfathered" and permitted. Almost all cham species are listed on CITES Appendix II which permits controlled exportation/importation in order to protect their wild populations from over exploitation. The permitting process is different.

CITES II is an endangered species classification and US Fish and Wildlife have to give you permits to export them. I believe virtually all chameleons are classed as endangered (mostly CITES II). They may not be CITES I, but CITES II is a really big headache. The description I gave in my two previous posts were for CITES II specimens.

CITES I is a nightmare. Here's the kind of Catch 22 they might demand with a CITES I permit: The exporting country will not issue the Export (or Re-Export) Permit until the importing country issues their Import Permit, which they won't do until the exporting country issues their exporting permit. That is the kind of nightmare scenario you can run into especially when dealing with US Fish and Wildlife.

As far as the elephant ivory which I imported into the states, the US Fish and Wildlife people told me that under no circumstances could Indian elephant ivory be imported and referred me to their own brochure which stated quite clearly that Indian elephant ivory could be imported. One person wanted it genetically tested (i.e. destroyed) to identify the species of elephant even though there was documentation that it was harvested decades before CITES even existed. Really, they don't know their own rules, and if you act on their advice whether written or verbal and it is wrong, you pay for the error with a fine or confiscation.

 

[Orcawhale]

Just remember, that's all off the top of my head. Things might have changed and I've never imported/exported chameleons. The last time I dealt with US Fish and Wildlife was about two years ago importing an ivory sculpture (CITES I) that had been in my family for 60 years and predated CITES. It still cost me about $2000, all to satisfy US FIsh and Wildlife. You will have to do your own research on the US side AND the Austrian side.

Thank you so much for your help Jejean, It probably won't be a problem for at least another year and a half, I'll keep everything you said in mind! When the time comes, I will probably find him a new home, but I will continue to research US Fish and Wildlife and also look at the Austrian side as well. Thank you so much again for going through so much effort to help me!

-Elijah

 

[Carlton]

CITES II is an endangered species classification and US Fish and Wildlife have to give you permits to export them. I believe virtually all chameleons are classed as endangered (mostly CITES II).

Here's a direct quote explaining CITES Appendix II species (most cham species are listed here):

"Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction (so they do not meet the definition of endangered at the present time) but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look alike species".....

International trade in specimens of Appendix II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild." The conditions include things like establishing export quotas or limits.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Here's a direct quote explaining CITES Appendix II species (most cham species are listed here):

"Appendix II lists species that are not necessarily now threatened with extinction (so they do not meet the definition of endangered at the present time) but that may become so unless trade is closely controlled. It also includes so-called "look alike species".....

International trade in specimens of Appendix II species may be authorized by the granting of an export permit or re-export certificate. No import permit is necessary for these species under CITES (although a permit is needed in some countries that have taken stricter measures than CITES requires). Permits or certificates should only be granted if the relevant authorities are satisfied that certain conditions are met, above all that trade will not be detrimental to the survival of the species in the wild." The conditions include things like establishing export quotas or limits.

Where is that quote from?

Here is from CITES itself:

Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances.

Appendix II includes species not necessarily threatened with extinction, but in which trade must be controlled in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival.


Appendix-II specimens

1. An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.
   
   An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.
   
   A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.
2. In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.
3. No import permit is needed unless required by national law.

www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php

Bottom line, CITES II animals need all kinds of paperwork and getting it from US Fish and Wildlife is a NIGHTMARE and very expensive. If it is a captive bred, US FIsh and Wildlife will ask for proof. If it is a wild caught, US Fish and Wildlife will ask for the Export permit when it was exported from it's country of origin.

The US also has the Endangered Species Act, which adds another layer to international trade. There are some species of animals, captive-bred pets, that cannot be sold across (US) state lines. Even transporting them across (US) state lines needs a permit.

 

[Carlton]

Where is that quote from?

Here is from CITES itself:

Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances.

Appendix II includes species not necessarily threatened with extinction, but in which trade must be controlled in order to avoid utilization incompatible with their survival.


Appendix-II specimens

1. 
   
   
   • An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.
     
     An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.
     
     A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.
   • In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.
   • No import permit is needed unless required by national law.

www.cites.org/eng/disc/how.php

Bottom line, CITES II animals need all kinds of paperwork and getting it from US Fish and Wildlife is a NIGHTMARE and very expensive. If it is a captive bred, US FIsh and Wildlife will ask for proof. If it is a wild caught, US Fish and Wildlife will ask for the Export permit when it was exported from it's country of origin.

The US also has the Endangered Species Act, which adds another layer to international trade. There are some species of animals, captive-bred pets, that cannot be sold across (US) state lines. Even transporting them across (US) state lines needs a permit.

I got my quote from the cites.org website. I'm not trying to argue with you, just clarify the definition of "threatened and endangered" as it pertains to CITES. Maybe a better term for CITES Appendix II species is "at risk for endangerment". Its important to make the distinction between a formal designation of Threatened or Endangered and designations of species that might become so in future, because the former category triggers more laws and regulations than the latter does. An expert on all this is our own Chris Anderson.

Yes, the US has its own endangered species act as do some other nations, but it doesn't really add another regulatory layer in addition to CITES. It is the law that authorizes the USA to uphold CITES, it gives our federal government the authority to add protections to vulnerable species within the USA, provide funding to recovery programs, prohibit "take" (disturbance, injure, kill, or possess), and also to protect those species' habitat. You'll find that the list of US T&E species are included on CITES Appendix I, not Appendix II. Some CITES signatory nations can decide to restrict or prohibit export/import of additional species that are NOT on Appendix I across their own borders, which confuses things further. I think the EU has created its own restrictions on import of some cham species including Parson's. Parson's are NOT listed on CITES Appendix I that I know of. There has been a petition to add Parson's to Appendix I but it was not ratified by the member nations.

In my former life with USFWS I evaluated and issued take, possession, and research permits for T&E species for the western states and was part of the approval process along with the DC Office of Administrative Authority to issue import/export permits. The process for CITES Appendix I species has more steps (for example there is a mandatory public review period for each application),requires more approvals, takes longer and costs more than the processing of CITES Appendix II or III species permits. Within the USA, interstate commerce/transport of threatened and endangered species (Appendix I) is regulated by the Lacey Act. There are no Lacey Act permits required to transport CITES Appendix II chameleon species within the USA unless for some reason an individual state has decided to regulate transport of those species.

But as you said, the bottom line really is that exporting and (sometimes) importing chameleons across international borders is expensive, time-consuming, and complicated.