Can see chameleon ribs and trouble shedding

[HolyToledo]

My veiled male went to the vet's and fooled us all. He had just had awesome x-rays 2.5 months earlier and after a thorough physical exam was decided nothing was broken so we didn't do x-rays. HA! Big mistake! He fooled us good and did indeed have a broken front leg. No signs of pain on exam. Grip was fantastic, just wasn't quite acting up to par. 3 days later he finally gave in to it all and started letting that leg hang.

Moral of the story, they can be in intense pain or sicker than they look and hide it very well! Get x-rays and figure out if there is any breaks or signs of weakness in the bones (MBD or anything else) and get things fixed and fixed fast. Life with bone issues is horrible for both the cham and it's owner and don't I know it.

Good luck and I hope for the best for you two.

 

[Dr O]

these are the foods, we also have a panther chameleon. she just recovered from a respiratory infection. why doesnt she have any of these symptoms? trust me our uv bulbs are less then 6 months, they burn out long before then. ive had this cham for about nine months and had no less hen 3 different bulbs.

i got him from a breeder at a pet store.

now if he did break anything, wouldnt he be in incredible amounts of pain, he seems to be moving pretty ok.unfortunetly mr. fred wont be able to make it to a vet till tommorow.

Tomorrow is fine, better late than never. to briefly address some of your points--

--panther chams and veiled chams are completely different species, not just a different breed like a dog or cat. they have very different requirements in many aspects of their lives, temperature for one. they live 2,500 miles apart in very different environments; let's say desert for veileds and jungle for panthers. right there i'm sure that you can appreciate that those 2 habitats are very, very different from each other. and if you currently have both lizards in the same types of environment, eating the same types of food, right there is proof that something is wrong, because it MUST be different.

--i'll bet several other people on this board are wondering as i am if your panther had the respiratory infection due to improper nutrition and perhaps other things; we don't have a care sheet for that one. but when 90-95% of pet reptilian diseases are due to incorrect husbandry (very important term here; please look it up if you are not 100% sure what that means), both of these situations raise a lot of red flags. chameleons tend to have very strict requirements for how they live; break those rules and they almost invariably will become ill in one fashion or another. and while one might get a respiratory infection, another might have difficulties maintaining proper calcium levels in every single cell in their body because there has been too much vitamin D3 supplementation here.

--as to incredible amounts of pain, the answer is typically no, hardly any at times. currently another forum member has a chameleon with a broken back, but it's not screaming in agony, it's trying to just survive. and for a wild animal one of the surest ways NOT to survive is to show that you are in pain or disabled; i can promise you that would be noticed very, very quickly by the first predator that comes around. so not only do they sense pain completely differently than we do, they tend to not to exhibit it as much. and a couple of ribs possibly broken where the bone meets the cartilage isn't usually excrucitating even in human medicine. in either case, it's just a possibility based on your history and a photograph.

i know that i speak for many when i say that i'm happy that he's going to see a veterinarian; many do not. however, as a veterinarian who has a lot or reptile experience, it concerns me that you have apparently been to this vet in the past and they did not have you change the dusting powder or frequency, which is unfortunately inappropriate and possibly quite damaging. perhaps they did and it was missed, but dealing with a vet who has reptile--->lizard--->chameleon experience will generally give you information that some other vets have never even heard of, and some of those other vets have given advice that is just plain wrong for the species. and this amazing forum has a wealth of information and good people on it; it's always a fantastic place to come, learn, and ask.

please let us know how the visit turns out! and if they recommend an xray to look at his bone health in general, i cannot urge you strongly enough to do it.

dr. o-

 

[teinnow]

yes i actually think he did break his ribs, though would it be symetrical? it looks liek if he did he did it to both sides. he hasnt been eating so i crushed up some crickets added soem water and just a tiny tiny tiny bit of calcium and force fed him with a syringe, he actually seemed to perk up a bit and he wasnt layign down completly he was supporting his whole self. if he does have broken ribs, is it true they can heal fairly well on their own?

thank you for all the help guys! i really apreciate it

 

[Dr O]

if he does have broken ribs, is it true they can heal fairly well on their own?

only if they are healthy in all other respects and don't have any of the underlying diseases that we are concerned about.

dr. o-

 

[bradley]

I would also look at how often you are holding him. If he hisses hw dont want to come out so dont take him out. let the chameleon decide. If he crawls out onto you then take him out but otherwise leave him be. You are not going to make him tamer by taking him out often, you will just stress him out.

 

[teinnow]

is this normal? i thought it was kinda funny, but i was scared at the same time. if he is healthy, how long would it take to see his ribs heal?

it also seems liek hes not really using his tail, i can move it around pretty much freely, he can move it a bit but i dotn see him using it on his branches or anything

 

[Elizadolots]

Does his tail always hang limp with just a bit of curl? Or does he sometimes curl it up completely? How about when he sleeps?

 

[teinnow]

sometimes when he slept he curled it all up its something i never really paid attention to but i know he used to wrap it around vines and things while moving. the vet appointment is scheduled for 11 40 tomorrow, he seems to be hanging in there, i have some repti boost food supplement coming tonight so hopefully a little improvement untill tommorow!

 

[Murrdox]

With your supplementation schedule that you've mentioned, it sounds like you're doing what you should. But then I look at your pictures, and it screams MBD at me. It doesn't look as bad as a lot of cases I've seen, but from the pictures it looks like it. Get X-Rays from the vet, and get bloodwork done to test for his calcium level.

Also, no one has mentioned I think the state of his last poo that you mentioned, and his drinking habits. The orange poo is a sign that he's dehydrated. Combined with the fact that you said he's been drinking out of a waterfall for a long time, and you just recently switched to a dripper which you don't see him drinking from makes me think he's had a long-term hydration problem that has affected his health. I'm glad you gave him a shower to rehydrate him.

Maybe your UVB lamp could be the culprit? That could explain MBD even with supplements. The vet should be able to confirm though.

[EDIT] Sorry I see now where you said you'd changed the bulbs

 

[teinnow]

yea mr fred is in the emergency room right now, my girlfriend took him. hes currently on oxygen will update.

 

[skittles1234]

oh wow...good luck lil fred!!! thats so sad poor thing

 

[Dr O]

With your supplementation schedule that you've mentioned, it sounds like you're doing what you should.

Calcium with vitamin D three supplemented twice-weekly with only gut loading in between? I have to disagree with that. Particularly on a chronically dehydrated animal.

 

[Elizadolots]

I'll be thinking good thoughts for Mr. Fred. I hope he will be okay. For all they seem fragile, they are very determined to survive and can be very resilient.

 

[teinnow]

so the pet emergency didnt specialize in chameleons, but my girlfriend said they checked for infection and a few other things, they gave him soem oxygen and soem heat, and she said he perked right up and was moving really well, the vet called me and told me they could keep him on oxygen and heat and monitor im over night for 300bucks, but she recommended i take her to the specialist. so i gotta call and rebook my appointment today(hopefully). when i first woke up mr fred was on the floor and cold i thought he was dead, but to my surprise he woke up after a while, i warmed him up a little and we fed him some more reptiboost. he really perked up and was climbing around on everything moving pretty speedy! even the depression doesnt look that bad(could it have been lack of food water?)

as about the d3 calcium, he hasnt had that in over a week (minus the tiny tiny bit i put in with the dead cricket mush) because he wasnt eating. anyways im going to go give him a shower here in a bit and hope this clinic can get me and mr fred in today!

 

[Murrdox]

Calcium with vitamin D three supplemented twice-weekly with only gut loading in between? I have to disagree with that. Particularly on a chronically dehydrated animal.

Sorry shouldn't have used the words "Should". What I mean is that with that level of supplementation, even though it's not ideal, I wouldn't think the chameleon could develop MBD.

I'm glad you're giving Fred the care he needs and took him to the vet. I'm sorry they couldn't do more for him like X-Rays and bloodwork. Hopefully the specialist will be better. I hope he continues to improve! It's worrying that he was on the floor this morning, so sorry about that.

 

[teinnow]

yea it was scary, but he actualy is a lot better, hes actually using his 4 mitts and climbing the mesh again, hes moving so much better its such a relief. time to call the vet! and yes they can do bloodwork and xrays all that good stuff!

 

[teinnow]

mr. fred is scheduled for a 2 30 appointment!

 

[teinnow]

well he fell again, but thankfully i prepared a bunch of paper towels, he was upside down when i found him, bu doing fine, decided its best i keep him with me for the remaining hours till we go see the vet

 

[Dr O]

Sorry shouldn't have used the words "Should". What I mean is that with that level of supplementation, even though it's not ideal, I wouldn't think the chameleon could develop MBD.

my point was meant to refer back to you referring to the dark orange urates and the D3 being given regularly. one of the problems that tend to occur with oversupplementation of D3 is calcification of the body organs. and i have indeed done necropsies with histopathology of reptilian kidneys that showed destruction of the kidney tubules by calcification. in this instance it's chicken or the egg--did high D3 levels damage the kidneys and that's why we're seeing dark urates, or did chronic dehydration cause renal failure which was advanced by the high levels of D3 supplementation?

i don't know, and i'm not even sure it's a prominent factor in this situation, but as others will read this post forever, i just wanted to clarify that point. i know the OP did what the breeder had recommended, but since it's incorrect and actually harmful information i would like others to realize that as well.

dr. o-

 

[HolyToledo]

I think that everyone should be aware that supplements, even when given in the correct amounts from day 1, do not prevent MBD in ALL chameleons. Some of the critters are not able to process the supplements correctly and without good gutloading and feeding practices some animals can still have bone issues.

My case is a perfect example! Trooper Twister was 2 weeks old when I got him. Thanks to the info on the forum his lighting, heat, supplements, etc. were top of the line. The only area with any shortfall was his feeding practices. I offered different foods gutloaded with carrots and mustard greens but wasn't concerned about diet because of the supplement schedule. At 6mos old Twister was healthy and the vet was impressed with him and the care I was giving Twister. Even his x-rays were fantastic. Not so 2.5 mos later!

Many bone problems later, I have to say that it is very important to offer a variety of bugs that are gutloaded with a variety of fruits and veggies, nuts, and grains and quit relying on supplements. They are a back-up for good nutrition practices. And with some critters this is critically important to understand. So, when there is ANY question, get x-rays! Do not believe your animals bones are fine just because you are doing everything even close to right!

And, I sure hope Mr. Fred gets better soon!