Oh no, I see a trend starting here
.As long as your feeder cups can be sent out from a cave it should still be O.K.
Chameleon "experts" (and to those looking for a first time chameleon)
- Thread starter OldChamKeeper
- Start date
Oh no, I see a trend starting here
.As long as your feeder cups can be sent out from a cave it should still be O.K.
celeste_knitter
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well, I'll jump in and "bite". I'm a new chameleon keeper. I've had other reptiles, but these are my 1st 2 chams. I totally agree with finding a breeder that you trust and going with what they tell you. I also would add that chameleons should not be impulse buys - ideally you should spend at least 6 months researching what is required to keep them, saving money (more than you think!) for all the things they need, and building a relationship with people who have been doing this a LOT longer than you! Come to a reputable forum community and lurk - do not respond like you know anything, but just absorb the info. Watch Bill's podcasts and learn! I feel extremely lucky to have found my breeder here, who has now become my friend. I have 2 wonderful panther chams. Maybe one day I will venture into other types...who knows. I learn more and more every day!
CC's Baby
Avid Member
Thank you Bill -- I wanted to ask you about cage size? Do you think a 24x24x48 is better than a 36x18x36 for a male panther chameleon? AND, I would like to find out the list of reputable panther breeders that you were discussing in the video. I would like to buy a captive bred so I am looking to find the breeder best suited for what I am looking for. Any help in this area is so greatly appreciated. You have been so helpful already.
CC's Baby
Avid Member
WOW! That is a super informative video. Thanks for sharing that. I listened to the entire thing and took notes. That is EXACTLY what I needed to know and honestly relieved to know that they are not demanding and prefer to be solitude and okay being left alone as long as they are comfortable in their environment. Now, I just need to study up on the feeding and how to's to know exactly what I am getting into. I am needing to know about crickets and "gutpacking" them and more so, I am concerned about ODOR in this area and how to maintain it properly with the food sources required for a chameleon to have a happy nutrition and not be bored with the same old food day in and day out.
CC's Baby
Avid Member
CC's Baby
Avid Member
Thank you for your post as well. I am so easily learning this. and YES, I am saving money and on my second month of learning about them and I see that I definitely have a lot more to learn and I am anxious to learn it. I am reading threads that are directed toward new cham owners and I am trying to learn as much as I can because like you said -- This should NOT be an impulse buy and I definitely want to know EXACTLY what I am doing and find the best spot for him when the time comes to actually get it all setup and purchased BEFORE I buy the guy. I can see that it will take more time and research. The one thing I know for sure is that I do want a male panther cham, but I am a bit of a perfectionist so by the time I learn what I need to know and BELIEVE ME I MAY ASK A ZILLION QUESTIONS to YOU GUYS on this forum, I am going to know enough to feel confident I am providing the best and most comfortable environment for my cham. Thank you all for "every piece of info" that is put on this forum. I am a "sponge" and trying to take it all in. I am very open minded. I have learned about their behaviors and "signs" now I need to know just how complicated and time consuming is the feeding process? Any help here and advice would be great. Thanks again to all of you! I hope to have a pic within a year of "CC's Baby" only because it is a no-name at the moment but I hope I can make you all proud!
And this is what a place like the Chameleon Forums is so valuable for. Building those relationships and finding those breeders that are truly know what they are doing. We have gathered a great amount of information on how to breed certain species. Unfortunately, that means that people can follow the recipe and suddenly become "expert" breeders. But hang out at a place like the forums and lurk and you get a very good view as to how things are!
Thank you for sharing!
Panther chameleons will do well in both size cages. It is all in how the inside is made up! a nice clear basking area and a lot of live plants for them to hide in when they want to and either size is fine.
I list my breeders in the comments of the video on the YouTube site. But for panthers it currently lists only Kammerflage Kreations as I have had many of their panthers and have been very happy with their quality and customer service. I recommend them from personal experience. Now, you are in a better position than most YouTubers. You are on these forums where you will be exposed to a number of smaller breeders that have built great reputations themselves. For example, I have never met or dealt with @Matt Vanilla Gorilla. I have no idea who this guy is. But from what I read on these forums from his postings and postings from his customers, I am thinking he would treat you right. So that is the advantage you have. You can get to know smaller breeders here that are excellent. You can do a search and see how long they have been breeding and how they treat their customers. My list won't be comprehensive - it is just what I have experience with and can, thus, recommend with confidence.
In this Facebook world where anyone can slap on a logo and call themselves a breeding business - even before they have hatched out their first clutch - you have to have a strong filter on what information you take in. As a beginner there is no way to have this filter yet. On Facebook you can still bully your way into being seen as an expert. Chameleon Forums has been around much longer and is more mature. And that discourages inexperienced breeders. The community is well established so new comers talking about how incredible they are can not pretend that they have been around forever. As @OldChamKeeper said - all you have to do on Facebook to be an expert is memorize the care sheets and regurgitate all that info into each and every post you can get your hands on. The sheer quantity of posts you make leads newbies to think you are an expert. (And no, there is no way that the long timers have the time to challenge each and every one of these pop-up experts). But here on the forums you have a more established crew. In this world of deafening social media noise, you have to dig a bit to find these hallowed halls. So the population here is a bit more stable. You are in a good place.
Gutloading is a big topic! This is one of the main reasons I do a podcast - to be able to answer questions that have a huge long answer! Here is the podcast I did on Gutloading with John Courteney-Smith
But one trick about crickets - they only smell when they are not cleaned and maintained. Keep your crickets bins cleaned (yes it takes discipline and diligence...for us all) and the food fresh and there will be no oder.
Here is the Gutloading Podcast
https://www.chameleonbreeder.com/podcast/gutloading-chameleon-feeders/
But there is also a care guide in the files here that discussed gutloading. Just go to the resources section for a bunch of good information. (Link to the gutloading section below)
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/
And chameleons get bored with food often when they are over fed. A good standard is to feed the juveniles as much as they want to eat until they reach their adult stage and then cut back to about five food items every other - or even every three- days. We naturally want to spoil our loved ones and we have a hard time understanding a creature that does not need to eat all the time like we endotherms do. But chameleons don't move much if they are in a an area that has everything they need. Not many calories burned.
Last edited:
salty dog
Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm new, and plan on breeding at some point, I've been visiting 101 chams eric quite often got my chams and some eggs also from matt V.G. and get schooled by both of them, thank you guys!! Great people, and everyone here, yes I did just pop up, this is the first time in my life that I've been stable enough, with support from my family to raise and in the future breed chams, I've loved them and other reptiles since I was a kid, even if it's not profitable, I'm in it for me, I just don't want to be stuck with too many......I'm doing my homework, I respect you old schoolers
Graves923
Chameleon Enthusiast
The attack squirrels are no joke, they are trained to go for the nuts.... I'll see myself out now lol
And please do not take what I say to discourage new breeders! I want to encourage new breeders to get going as you are the lifeblood of our community's future! The frustration you detect in these old timers is the new breeders that mistake being able to recite a care sheet for true understanding as to what those numbers mean and how to apply them.
This is how we get breeders who say chameleons needs to be kept in screen cages and the they will die in solid side cages. While this is true in some cases (which is why it made it to a care sheet), it totally fails when you are working with environments that are very dry or get cold. And knowing when a screen cage or a solid side cage is appropriate comes with time and experience. And knowing that both screen cages and glass cages can be used in most cases always also comes with experience! (The experience on that last one is not to know it can be done, but to ward off all the old care sheet readers.)
There really is no way around putting in the years for understanding the numbers.
My advice to new breeders coming up and advising their customers is to share what you do and what works for you. Avoid like the plague telling people that other things do not work! Just state what you know. The big problem is new breeders talking about things that only experience teaches. There is no shame in starting out. You can breed and offer healthy chameleons without going beyond what you know. Start slow and build that foundation. Once the foundation is built and solid you can shoot as high as you want.
KRGEE21
Avid Member
Good morning all.
Great intro video the Chameleon husbandry that anyone considering keeping chams should watch.
I got my first Quadricornis in 1998. He was adult WC. My then girlfriend(now wife) worked at a pet store and the owner of the store was looking to try a different species. I had no idea what I was getting into, but decided(with a bit of poking from the GF) to give it a shot.... read every book available and researched where the species came from, climate, special needs etc. None of that prepared me for the reality of what was really required. A LOT OF WORK AND DEDICATION.
It was a very sad day when he passed on----about 3 and a half years later. Still bugs me as I know I could have done better for him if I would have had more information, and the support systems that are available now.
What advice I would give to someone starting out:
1. Do all of your research ahead of time. As others have said be a lurker and soak up as much as you can.
2. Consider the environment of your current home, and what would be the best place in the home for the species you are choosing to keep.
3. Set up the enclosure months prior to the arrival of your cham. This allows you to tweak the temperature, humidity levels, etc. Without the cham having to live through your the trial and error.
I also really like the idea of a forum "mentor". I was lucky to have been put in touch with @jajeanpierre who was kind enough to help me, and send me a wonderful little guy.
Have a happy and safe New Year....
CC's Baby
Avid Member
CC's Baby
Avid Member
Bill -- I cannot thank you enough for all of your valuable information. I will definitely spend more time on the podcasts you provide and get my P's and Q's down o the feeding and the maintenance. I will also check out your recommended breeder. I would like to ask you one more question. For me, someone who is new and learning, when I go to request a male panther cham from the breeder, at what age is best for me (inexperienced) to acquire one? From everything I am reading, 3 months old should be the absoluted youngest to get one and that they grow into their adult age at around 1 year. So I am guessing for someone who wants to learn and establish some comfort level for the cham in handling that maybe 3-4 months old would be best for both of us? Would you agree?
I am very much a newbie keeper. I got Beman my male Veiled Chameleon on October 27th 2018. He is now about 6-7 months old.
He is very friendly to me and loves being hand fed and likes to sit on my shoulder. HOWEVER I have learned that while I think it is cute and sweet that he likes to come see me this is not necessarily the best for him. We still have our "time" but I give him more time to himself now. I let him be a Chameleon and watch in amazement as he grows into a beautiful guy. Not a day has gone by that I don't think wow he is truly incredible and what an honor I have of being his keeper.
I did everything wrong not understanding the depth of knowledge and expense to providing the proper husbandry to a Chameleon. It was an impulse at a Petco. He followed me across his glass enclosure while I was there to get my monthly supplies for my daughters rabbit Monet. I had always admired Chameleons and did know that they needed a lot but never knew the extent. I was given all the wrong info and bought all the wrong stuff for him at the store. But was smart enough to get online the very same night and found this forum. I started reading every old thread I could on anything and everything. I came across @DeremensisBlue Dragon Strand Enclosures in this forum. Bill was amazing and helped me order the right enclosure even after I wavered on multiple enclosures and he directed me to other resources. I got in touch with Todd at lightyourreptiles.com and he was amazing. I got the correct lighting ordered and got an education on lighting, supplements, and gutloading.
I took a poop sample to my exotic vet to make sure he didn't have parasites. I covered the dirt in his plants with large stone to make sure he didn't eat it. I ordered a mist king. I bought different feeders. All of this I learned this from this forum and so much more.
So my advice as someone who did it all wrong and spent a lot of money on the wrong everything:
This is a very delicate animal that requires only the best of their keepers to live a healthy happy life. Dedication, money, and being eager to learn is necessary.
Avoid impulse buying... Bad very bad. Ends in a lot of expense on stuff you should not use and then you have to buy the right stuff. If you can research everything first. If you impulse buy as I did read and learn everything possible. Not to mention the stress it puts on the Chameleon while your trying to change their enclosure to make it right.
Stalk the forum and search for what you are trying to figure out as the information is there. Read the care sheets and other valuable sections in the Resource Link.
These are not like owning a cat or dog.... These are amazing little guys that require a full spectrum of stuff to live long healthy lives.
Thank you to this forum for without it and all the information I would be doing everything wrong... So from the bottom of my heart Thank you!
He is very friendly to me and loves being hand fed and likes to sit on my shoulder. HOWEVER I have learned that while I think it is cute and sweet that he likes to come see me this is not necessarily the best for him. We still have our "time" but I give him more time to himself now. I let him be a Chameleon and watch in amazement as he grows into a beautiful guy. Not a day has gone by that I don't think wow he is truly incredible and what an honor I have of being his keeper.
I did everything wrong not understanding the depth of knowledge and expense to providing the proper husbandry to a Chameleon. It was an impulse at a Petco. He followed me across his glass enclosure while I was there to get my monthly supplies for my daughters rabbit Monet. I had always admired Chameleons and did know that they needed a lot but never knew the extent. I was given all the wrong info and bought all the wrong stuff for him at the store. But was smart enough to get online the very same night and found this forum. I started reading every old thread I could on anything and everything. I came across @DeremensisBlue Dragon Strand Enclosures in this forum. Bill was amazing and helped me order the right enclosure even after I wavered on multiple enclosures and he directed me to other resources. I got in touch with Todd at lightyourreptiles.com and he was amazing. I got the correct lighting ordered and got an education on lighting, supplements, and gutloading.
I took a poop sample to my exotic vet to make sure he didn't have parasites. I covered the dirt in his plants with large stone to make sure he didn't eat it. I ordered a mist king. I bought different feeders. All of this I learned this from this forum and so much more.
So my advice as someone who did it all wrong and spent a lot of money on the wrong everything:
This is a very delicate animal that requires only the best of their keepers to live a healthy happy life. Dedication, money, and being eager to learn is necessary.
Avoid impulse buying... Bad very bad. Ends in a lot of expense on stuff you should not use and then you have to buy the right stuff. If you can research everything first. If you impulse buy as I did read and learn everything possible. Not to mention the stress it puts on the Chameleon while your trying to change their enclosure to make it right.
Stalk the forum and search for what you are trying to figure out as the information is there. Read the care sheets and other valuable sections in the Resource Link.
These are not like owning a cat or dog.... These are amazing little guys that require a full spectrum of stuff to live long healthy lives.
Thank you to this forum for without it and all the information I would be doing everything wrong... So from the bottom of my heart Thank you!
Three months and up is good for a panther to come live with you. A responsible breeder will make sure you get taken care of as far as age of panther chameleon. That is one huge advantage of going with someone recommended!
Carlton
Chameleon Enthusiast
The comment about cham bites almost never being a surprise is very true. I can admit to only one bite that WAS a surprise. I haven't been bitten more than a few times and when I was it was completely understandable. I pushed the cham into it for some reason or I was dealing with an animal that was in an extreme situation; fear or anger. When you think it through, a physical bite is the last resort. What else could a largely harmless creature possibly do to get rid of you (aka the threat or the annoyance)?
I had a wc male T. deremensis who happened to be the most secretive, tight-lipped individual I'd ever met. If he didn't have such reactive skin I don't think I would have known if he was conscious (well, not really....exaggerating to enhance the story). The other chams I've kept eventually taught me what was acceptable behavior while in their presence and what wasn't. Not him. You didn't watch his body language, posture, movements of tail, feet, rib flattening, nothing. You watched the fleeting shadowy color change that trickled over him to get some sort of a hint what was going on behind that face. But sometimes he controlled even that quite well. One day I let him walk onto my hand for a trip to a favorite sunny window he'd enjoyed before. He strolled up my arm, skin quiet. No signs he was feeling surly. He arrived on my shoulder calmly, hooked the tip of his tail under my shirt collar and waited for the windowsill to arrive. Next thing I know he had latched onto my earlobe and would not let it go. It wasn't that he could really do any damage, it was the surprise at the venom. He was quite a character and made one of the strongest impressions on me of any of the others because of it.[/QUOTE]
I had a wc male T. deremensis who happened to be the most secretive, tight-lipped individual I'd ever met. If he didn't have such reactive skin I don't think I would have known if he was conscious (well, not really....exaggerating to enhance the story
). The other chams I've kept eventually taught me what was acceptable behavior while in their presence and what wasn't. Not him. You didn't watch his body language, posture, movements of tail, feet, rib flattening, nothing. You watched the fleeting shadowy color change that trickled over him to get some sort of a hint what was going on behind that face. But sometimes he controlled even that quite well. One day I let him walk onto my hand for a trip to a favorite sunny window he'd enjoyed before. He strolled up my arm, skin quiet. No signs he was feeling surly. He arrived on my shoulder calmly, hooked the tip of his tail under my shirt collar and waited for the windowsill to arrive. Next thing I know he had latched onto my earlobe and would not let it go. It wasn't that he could really do any damage, it was the surprise at the venom. He was quite a character and made one of the strongest impressions on me of any of the others because of it.[/QUOTE]
Last edited:
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
Interesting, a vote of confidence, and I did not even ask for it! Thank you!
Last edited:
celeste_knitter
Chameleon Enthusiast
Well deserved too! I hope you 2 get to meet someday in person! Heck I would love to meet both of you IRL!
Matt Vanilla Gorilla
Chameleon Enthusiast
It is people like you who do my heart good (also @dshuld and @JoshD49 @Jesspete @Kristen Wilkins @salty dog and quite a few more, just to mention a few)! People who do soooooo much research before they get their chameleon that they could teach a year long course on it! I spent soooooo much time teaching and answering questions to prospective buyers and to people who already purchased a chameleon from me! It is so wonderful when these people pay attention and independently take initiative and excel in chameleon keeping! Warms the heart! Thank you!!!
