Chameleon with no eyes...

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Hi again. I'm reading your posts as possible I can. It takes time to read a foreign language, as you can understand my bad English writing :( every post, every comment is very important for me. In Turkey there is no one to disguss about reptile health, I wanted to reply all of you but I don't have that much time. Baby is still alive, he behaves very normally if you don't mind he doesn't have eyes. Of course force feeding continues. He is drinking himself while I'm misting them. So only problem is feeding. He is sleeping at nights, he wakes up in the mornings. He knows the daily routine. I don't know how he knows. He won't be with me all of his life, I will be with him all of his life, there is difference..
About Turkey :) Where should I start I don't know. I love my country, I believe them they are very good people. But when the religion comes up, it all changes.. Erdogan uses religion to impress people, unfortunately our people is very emotional about it. They can be deceived easily. Anyway I can write lots of things but I shouldn't. Thanks for all of your posts. I will continue to feed him. If I see him suffering, than I can think about euthanasia.
 
chamillion said:
Hi again. I'm reading your posts as possible I can. It takes time to read a foreign language, as you can understand my bad English writing :( every post, every comment is very important for me. In Turkey there is no one to disguss about reptile health, I wanted to reply all of you but I don't have that much time. Baby is still alive, he behaves very normally if you don't mind he doesn't have eyes. Of course force feeding continues. He is drinking himself while I'm misting them. So only problem is feeding. He is sleeping at nights, he wakes up in the mornings. He knows the daily routine. I don't know how he knows. He won't be with me all of his life, I will be with him all of his life, there is difference..
About Turkey :) Where should I start I don't know. I love my country, I believe them they are very good people. But when the religion comes up, it all changes.. Erdogan uses religion to impress people, unfortunately our people is very emotional about it. They can be deceived easily. Anyway I can write lots of things but I shouldn't. Thanks for all of your posts. I will continue to feed him. If I see him suffering, than I can think about euthanasia.
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Stay safe and be careful what you write.
 
chamillion said:
Hi again. I'm reading your posts as possible I can. It takes time to read a foreign language, as you can understand my bad English writing :( every post, every comment is very important for me. In Turkey there is no one to disguss about reptile health, I wanted to reply all of you but I don't have that much time. Baby is still alive, he behaves very normally if you don't mind he doesn't have eyes. Of course force feeding continues. He is drinking himself while I'm misting them. So only problem is feeding. He is sleeping at nights, he wakes up in the mornings. He knows the daily routine. I don't know how he knows. He won't be with me all of his life, I will be with him all of his life, there is difference..
About Turkey :) Where should I start I don't know. I love my country, I believe them they are very good people. But when the religion comes up, it all changes.. Erdogan uses religion to impress people, unfortunately our people is very emotional about it. They can be deceived easily. Anyway I can write lots of things but I shouldn't. Thanks for all of your posts. I will continue to feed him. If I see him suffering, than I can think about euthanasia.
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Our hearts go out to you. When I think about all the fear and misery in the world today I feel so badly. How people treat each other should transcend religion. Basic human decency, respect, and kindness belong in every faith. Be safe and take care of your cham and yourself.
 
Virgil1972 said:
I agree if you can't handle the way nature does things then you probably should not be apart of it. Nature is a serial killer and a psychopath, she has no compassion and no boundaries when it comes to ending life. Humane is a human idea that nature wants no part of.
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Even though I agree that "nature" has no compassion, I do not agree that its a psychopath. Compassion and behaving as a psychopath imply intent. There is no being behind "nature". Its a chain of events; action and reaction, not a construct of a conscious mind. I see nature in all its harshness every day and yes, its very hard not to step in. If events line up so I can intervene (such as putting a creature out of its misery), I can, but I don't do it mindlessly and consider what the longer term outcome might be (unintended consequences). Don't lose sight of the fact that this little cham is not in nature, its in human hands. Its keeper has the power to affect its life and has taken on that responsibility mindfully.
 
jajeanpierre said:
I take offense to your comment. Your choice of words such as "even if it involves more hard work than others can be bothered to put in," suggests that breeders such as myself are lazy and can't be "bothered" to put in the effort to keep a baby alive, that we don't care about our animals. Nothing can be further from the truth.

I look at a baby with no eyes as doomed. Even if my skill can keep it alive--and I'm pretty good with critically ill chameleons--it would have no hope of leaving my premises. It has no business becoming a part of anyone's breeding program so would be filling a cage that I need for my breeding animals. It would be wasting a tremendous amount of my time and financial resources. And that doesn't even address the very likely outcome of a slow and lingering death.

Allowing a chameleon in your care to die a likely long and lingering death is not something I think a young chameleon owner such as yourself should view as admirable. The decision to not euthanize this animal is about the owner's sentiment and not about the best interests of the chameleon. The breeder's decision is about the very real trauma and heart ache any caring person feels when they dispatch an animal, especially a young animal. It is about the breeder not being able to do it. I understand that. It's awful to cull or slaughter animals you have raised with love. I have chickens and there is no place for more than two roosters in a flock but half the chicks hatch out male. I raise them up, give them a great life and then one day when I can't put it off any longer, I slaughter them. And I cry. And I am sick over it. I still do it. Other chicken keepers lock their roosters out of the coop and allow nature to take care of it, which involves a very very cruel death. They, too, can't find the backbone to do what is needed and just put their heads in the sand. I am disgusted by those supposedly loving poultry keepers who allow their poor young roosters to be ripped apart and often eaten while alive.

If this breeder can keep it alive for longer than two months, I expect this baby will become severely stunted from malnutrition and eventually starve to death or die from dehydration related problems. I expect that over time, this baby won't be quite so willing to gape to take in food. At some point, I expect that this breeder will try to force feed this baby and fracture or dislocate the jaw. That is what I expect. These outcomes have nothing to do with whether or not I am prepared to "bother" putting in the work to keep a viable baby alive.

If this breeder chooses to spend an inordinate amount of time keeping this baby alive, that is his/her choice. I'm sure he/she realizes that this baby will be in his/her care for its whole life which means that a cage will be occupied by something that has no place in a breeding program.
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I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone I'm just saying that personally would think it was my duty as an owner to try my best for the animal and its welfare by attempting, even if I fail, to raise any animal as long as it's not in distress or discomfort. I understand your point of view and i respect it. I had no intention of upsetting anyone and I admit that I used a poor choice of words but I don't have a great way of putting sentences together so they don't offend anyone as I'm only 13I know people should do what's best for the animal welfare but I think that I'd be morally obliged to dedicate time to it for a good quality of life even if that's not what others would personally think is right.
Once again I apologise for any offence caused by my post, I just wanted to put my opinion forward.
 
Millz&Jukka said:
I'm sorry I didn't mean to offend anyone I'm just saying that personally would think it was my duty as an owner to try my best for the animal and its welfare by attempting, even if I fail, to raise any animal as long as it's not in distress or discomfort. I understand your point of view and i respect it. I had no intention of upsetting anyone and I admit that I used a poor choice of words but I don't have a great way of putting sentences together so they don't offend anyone as I'm only 13I know people should do what's best for the animal welfare but I think that I'd be morally obliged to dedicate time to it for a good quality of life even if that's not what others would personally think is right.
Once again I apologise for any offence caused by my post, I just wanted to put my opinion forward.
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Apology accepted.

I was like you at 13, wanting to save everything. As I've grown older I've learned that decisions on whether to go to heroic lengths to keep something alive are not a decision made in isolation. While we often can do something, we need to always question whether we should do it. We need to weigh not just the animals' comfort and quality of life but also the needs of the family that owns it. I cringe, absolutely cringe when people here talk about taking a loan to try to save a chameleon. I do not believe a pet should put their owner in the poor house. Many on this forum feel that nothing should be spared to keep a chameleon alive. I don't agree with that point of view.
 
jajeanpierre said:
Apology accepted.

I was like you at 13, wanting to save everything. As I've grown older I've learned that decisions on whether to go to heroic lengths to keep something alive are not a decision made in isolation. While we often can do something, we need to always question whether we should do it. We need to weigh not just the animals' comfort and quality of life but also the needs of the family that owns it. I cringe, absolutely cringe when people here talk about taking a loan to try to save a chameleon. I do not believe a pet should put their owner in the poor house. Many on this forum feel that nothing should be spared to keep a chameleon alive. I don't agree with that point of view.
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So what dollar amount do you attach to the life of a chameleon so that we can offer the best advice to those who need it? Also what dollar amount for what age? I have already stated my opinion on what I felt is best, but that is not what the OP is deciding to do. Now I hope they are up to the challenge. No one here told anyone to take out a loan, and I understand what you are saying, but I now have to argue the point. @jajeanpierre, you do not have all the right answers to all the questions. You may cringe all you want when you are thinking about how much or how little money is spent on other peoples animals, but it truly isn't a perfect science. I risked a lot of money to save a 6 month old cat in congestive heart failure who ultimately had a limb amputated and will be on meds for the rest of his life. He has just passed his 9th birthday and is expected to live many more with a fantastic quality of life. I spent a sick amount of money to try to help him, and sacrificed many things for him. At the time he was only with us a few weeks, but we took on a responsibility when we adopted him and that was the decision we made. What amount of money would be the limit where we decide not to try to save his life? If you ask most of the people that knew about it at the time, most would not have done it. As for the animal's comfort, when this was happening, I witnessed pain in that cat's eyes that I hope none of you ever have to see. I knew that he was suffering but I also believed that he could make it if we did what the doctors suggested. His story is called (by the doctors and staff) a little miracle. They had never seen a cat that young survive what he had been through and now have more experience with medications for animals that may have similar issues. No, I would not have risked loosing my house over a pet, but I did go without many luxuries for a few years. I don't accept someone using money as an excuse to not get treatment or do what is right for the animal. Most do this without even asking a vet about options or payment plans.
Many on the forums believe that you should not have animals if you cannot afford to take care of them. Do not confuse this with the way you are twisting it. No one that I know of thinks that money is no object, its about responsibility. What would you have told me if I told you my 6 month old cat threw a blood clot and had an enlarged heart and almost no pulse in either of his back legs? Without knowing the outcome? Just curious...
 
jajeanpierre said:
Apology accepted.

I was like you at 13, wanting to save everything. As I've grown older I've learned that decisions on whether to go to heroic lengths to keep something alive are not a decision made in isolation. While we often can do something, we need to always question whether we should do it. We need to weigh not just the animals' comfort and quality of life but also the needs of the family that owns it. I cringe, absolutely cringe when people here talk about taking a loan to try to save a chameleon. I do not believe a pet should put their owner in the poor house. Many on this forum feel that nothing should be spared to keep a chameleon alive. I don't agree with that point of view.
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I still think if it were me I'd try to keep it alive, even if others think it's a bad idea and wrong in their eyes. You might think because I'm 13 I'm trying to save everything and that I'm making hasty decisions but to be honest even as an adult is still think it's important to follow your heart not your head I guess. I also realised that you said about making heroic decisions but I'm not trying to, I just felt a bit patronised by that and I know that my opinion isn't everyone's opinion but it's mine and I'm entitled to it so I'm sorry if you don't agree but we can both think what we want to.
 
Millz&Jukka said:
I still think if it were me I'd try to keep it alive, even if others think it's a bad idea and wrong in their eyes. You might think because I'm 13 I'm trying to save everything and that I'm making hasty decisions but to be honest even as an adult is still think it's important to follow your heart not your head I guess. I also realised that you said about making heroic decisions but I'm not trying to, I just felt a bit patronised by that and I know that my opinion isn't everyone's opinion but it's mine and I'm entitled to it so I'm sorry if you don't agree but we can both think what we want to.
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Sometimes your head is better for the animal then your heart.
 
It's
Decadancin said:
So what dollar amount do you attach to the life of a chameleon so that we can offer the best advice to those who need it? Also what dollar amount for what age? I have already stated my opinion on what I felt is best, but that is not what the OP is deciding to do. Now I hope they are up to the challenge. No one here told anyone to take out a loan, and I understand what you are saying, but I now have to argue the point. @jajeanpierre, you do not have all the right answers to all the questions. You may cringe all you want when you are thinking about how much or how little money is spent on other peoples animals, but it truly isn't a perfect science. I risked a lot of money to save a 6 month old cat in congestive heart failure who ultimately had a limb amputated and will be on meds for the rest of his life. He has just passed his 9th birthday and is expected to live many more with a fantastic quality of life. I spent a sick amount of money to try to help him, and sacrificed many things for him. At the time he was only with us a few weeks, but we took on a responsibility when we adopted him and that was the decision we made. What amount of money would be the limit where we decide not to try to save his life? If you ask most of the people that knew about it at the time, most would not have done it. As for the animal's comfort, when this was happening, I witnessed pain in that cat's eyes that I hope none of you ever have to see. I knew that he was suffering but I also believed that he could make it if we did what the doctors suggested. His story is called (by the doctors and staff) a little miracle. They had never seen a cat that young survive what he had been through and now have more experience with medications for animals that may have similar issues. No, I would not have risked loosing my house over a pet, but I did go without many luxuries for a few years. I don't accept someone using money as an excuse to not get treatment or do what is right for the animal. Most do this without even asking a vet about options or payment plans.
Many on the forums believe that you should not have animals if you cannot afford to take care of them. Do not confuse this with the way you are twisting it. No one that I know of thinks that money is no object, its about responsibility. What would you have told me if I told you my 6 month old cat threw a blood clot and had an enlarged heart and almost no pulse in either of his back legs? Without knowing the outcome? Just curious...
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It's nice to know someone's with me!
 
Millz&Jukka said:
I understand your point, but I still believe that I'd help it(but that's just me personally, you're completely entitled to what you think)
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You not wrong to help it but could you do what is needed for the animal. What if this was your cham and you were doing all you could but the animal was starving to death then what?
 
Virgil1972 said:
You not wrong to help it but could you do what is needed for the animal. What if this was your cham and you were doing all you could but the animal was starving to death then what?
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Then I would do what's best for him, considering mine is young I would at least try to save him if it was in his best interest because he's my only reptile so I would be able to dedicate my time to him and I understand other people may not have time. If he was starving to death I would try to feed him and if it failed then I would put him out of his misery in his best interest, but considering the creator of this thread asked for what to do I just said what I though was right, even if in others eyes it might seem wrong.
 
Millz&Jukka said:
Then I would do what's best for him, considering mine is young I would at least try to save him if it was in his best interest because he's my only reptile so I would be able to dedicate my time to him and I understand other people may not have time. If he was starving to death I would try to feed him and if it failed then I would put him out of his misery in his best interest, but considering the creator of this thread asked for what to do I just said what I though was right, even if in others eyes it might seem wrong
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There is nothing wrong with trying to feed the animal but most likely the animal will not be able to eat enough to live.
 
I know but I believe i
Virgil1972 said:
There is nothing wrong with trying to feed the animal but most likely the animal will not be able to eat enough to live.
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i know but I believe it's worth a shot so I still think I'd try to save him as long as he wasn't in pain or dicomfort
 
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