chameleons skin reflects uv light

[kinyonga]

fluxlizard...Were the chameleons you raised with no D3 supplements outside in the summer?

You said..."I was using ge chroma 50s, sometimes combined with ge blacklight tubes"...some black lights (BL) emit UVB.

You said..."I have been uncomfortable with the low basking temps I see recommended for species like panthers and veileds nowadays, and the reason is that if the lizard cannot cook from time to time *when it wants* it cannot operate at maximum performance. I'm talking about ability to absorb nutrition properly, and I'm talking about immune system function. This is my opinion based on experience and rational logic"...I'm one of those people who keep a lower basking temperature for female veileds....its not much lower...low to mid 80's as compared to mid to high 80's...and then in the summer they will get hotter. Those veileds all have lived to be over 6 years old and some of them 7...and they were not thin...so if their immune system or health had suffered as a result of what I did wouldn't they have died earlier or shown some signs of bad health/low immune system?

 

[jojackson]

Be interesting to see some data on fluxlizards females (veilds/panthers) as to weather at max metabolism, they produced more eggs/per clutch and more clutches as one might expect in the wild and had a naturally shorter lifespan as a result, comparable to wild specimans?

 

[fluxlizard]

I'll try to answer as best I can. Keep in mind these experiences occurred to me in the 1990s- it's been a while. From 2000 or so on, I've had a pair or two at any given time, but not like I kept in the mid 90s. Also keep in mind that although I was keeping up with the latest info back then, the latest info today I have not been keeping up on.

With that in mind-

Be interesting to see some data on fluxlizards females (veilds/panthers) as to weather at max metabolism, they produced more eggs/per clutch and more clutches as one might expect in the wild and had a naturally shorter lifespan as a result, comparable to wild specimans?

1st I am not aware of any studies about the longevity of wild chameleons. Are you? If so, then I would have something more to compare with.

Otherwise, I know that 15 years ago the observations of wild chameleons up to that time hinted that most sun-loving species probably only lived a year or two max in the wild. The thinking at that time was that most of the sun-loving egg laying species matured rapidly and didn't have a long lifespan in the wild for a variety of reasons including parasites and seasonal environmental changes such as heat and drought and periods of heavy rain effecting food and water supply and so forth at times of the year. So the thinking was that a 3 year old panther or veiled of either sex in the wild would be a rare little beast indeed, and that females would probably be lucky to make it to 2 years of age. Indeed it was thought that some populations of some of these species practically died out at certain times of the year, and the incubating eggs were what carried the species forward (I think *some populations* of dilepis, gracilis, panthers, and carpets were thought of like this). That didn't even consider predation which is normally quite high for lizards across the board. IMO this thinking is most likely correct. I do know of a study that found that virtually 100% of a population of wild iguanas never made it past 7 years for similar reasons. We can double that in captivity routinely. That would be about the same for the lifespan of my chameleons back in those early days. The majority of females made it well past 2 and I had females often make it to 3 and some to 4 and a couple to 5 years. I had males make it longer- longest was probably 8.

You also have to remember the mentality was a little different back then too- when I first started veileds practically everyone believed that if you didn't have females breeding as soon as possible they would suffer from egg binding and you would loose them. We know that isn't true today.

After a year or two I practiced limiting feeding of insects, and with veileds I fed lots of salad. I do mean lots- I always had salad available and fed insects 2 or 3 times a week, monitoring the weight of the females, and they will eat lots of salad if you are limiting insects and have allowed them to develop a taste for the salad when they are young. I also allowed some to eat more insects. I don't think I ever found any difference in longevity of the females (to the best of my memory- I was interested in that thinking when it came along), but I do remember thinking that I sometimes found difference in clutch size (not always!) and moreso I found a difference in the number of clutches per year.

Secondly, and this is very important- I am not saying keep the lizard at max metabolism all the time. That's a bigger mistake, IMO than never letting the lizard achieve max metabolism- I am saying let the poor lizard choose to warm up as much as it wants whenever it wants, and let it cool down when it wants as well. (outside of seasonal cycling) Let it have control of it's thermoregulation by expanding the upper limits a little of possible choices. Lizards will use more heat if they need it and less if they need that. Let them choose if you want lizards that can have all their systems functioning in the way that they are supposed to function.

fluxlizard...Were the chameleons you raised with no D3 supplements outside in the summer?

The chams- The first year I had the veileds, yes. Indoors all year. Breeding no problems under chroma 50s. After that I started keeping chameleons outside all summer. So, to be fair, veileds are the only ones that I had for more than a year without access to UVB. So, no. But there were probably 3 or 4 years that I was raising babies indoors during the winter months prior to summer who would never have had access to anything except various chroma 50s, vita-lites, blacklight tubes or some combination of those during the winter without problems. I don't recall seeing any mbd crop up in the hatchlings under any lighting I used. Some of these only had the chroma 50s because I believed the guy at the lighting supply store when he told me they were the same as the vita-lites.

You said..."I was using ge chroma 50s, sometimes combined with ge blacklight tubes"...some black lights (BL) emit UVB.

That is correct. I did specifically look for the ones that were supposed to provide the uvb, but I have no idea what the effectiveness of these are using todays thinking. I imagine not very, or they would be popular today because they are very cheap compared to today's tubes. And I did not always use the blb tubes with the chroma 50s.

I'm one of those people who keep a lower basking temperature for female veileds....its not much lower...low to mid 80's as compared to mid to high 80's...and then in the summer they will get hotter. Those veileds all have lived to be over 6 years old and some of them 7...and they were not thin...so if their immune system or health had suffered as a result of what I did wouldn't they have died earlier or shown some signs of bad health/low immune system?

I am very impressed with your results.

For comparison of low and high though- I was providing basking sites of around 100 degrees (and they used them sometimes even when ambient temp in the room was in the mid 80s!), so low to mid 80s to me is much lower, not just a little. I have often wondered about a winter cooling for these guys and how that might effect clutch size and longevity, so I am very interested in your results.

I am not against seasonal changes when appropriate- I have to have seasonal changes for many of my lizards. I don't keep them operating like it's summer year round because they don't come from places where it is summer year round.

Also, please note, that I believe that good full spectrum lighting will compensate for some temperature and nutritional errors.

I don't mean that you are making errors when I say that- you have a better track record on longevity than me.

But it could be why you don't have problems. And others doing the same.

The OP was about whether cham skin could absorb uv and whether they could effectively use dietary d3.

The temp thing is just meant to explain why I think lab results can differ from what is possible. My point- if you've got bearded dragons sitting on hot rocks or iguanas being heated by a room heater, and you conclude that they cannot effectively absorb vitd3 from a food source or supplement, you may be wrong just because your lizards aren't operating as effectively as possible because of your setup. And that may be why my igs and beardeds had no problems using a dietary source. And while I haven't done with chameleons what I did with the igs and beardeds I did have some casual observational evidence and I doubt they are very different as a group than other lizards when it comes to basic things like whether they can utilize vit.d3 (tried several nutritional things with beardeds back in the day trying to learn more about them- I even had a group of 100% vegetarians from baby to egg laying adults producing babies of their own).

I do think that when your animals warm up in the summer, they are better able to use the nutrients they take in and they are better able to fight disease than when you are keeping them cooler in the winter.

I don't have the experience of trying those temps myself, but my feeling is that your summer temps may be as important as your winter temps for the longevity of your animals. One without the other might not be as successful.

Have you ever kept them cooler like that year round for a few years time to compare?

The lower temps year round are what I find interesting and the idea that these are kept constantly cool like that for years is what makes me uncomfortable, and what I thought people were recommending nowadays.

As well as the problems I already mentioned about determining proper d3 dosage, these lights have benefits that probably go well beyond the production of safe d3 such as the ability of the lizards to perceive color the same way they see things in sunlight, psychological benefits, and even probable physiological benefits (like stimulating the brain to make glands function normally). So, everybody reading this, please do not think that I am recommending you not use these lamps and go to providing d3 through nutrition only. I am not. I am only saying that I know that it can be done in other lizards that were once thought to be impossible to provide it in this way (maybe still thought? I'm not up on iguana stuff these days) and that I doubt that chameleons are any different.

Sorry so long.

 

[summoner12]

Very interesting stuff here.

 

[FiReBaNaNa]

I'm going to choose my words carefully because I stated a huge fight with my last set of posts, and I assure you that was not my intention then or now.

From my experice with birds. If you take uv photographs, special photographs that record the reflected lengths at wavelengths invisible to the unaided eye.

It turns out birds are often even more colorful than just the colors we can see. Same with flowers and such.


With this information, I don't see that it's out of the realm of possibility that chams have even more colors that are simply invisible to us, and reflected light is observed light. So take what I have said with a grain of salt.

Maybe chams can see in the uv spectrum and uses the reflection of uv rays to
comunicate or for markings and distiction between families.

It's all just my speculation... Buy definatly don't get rid of the bulb, your Cham
may need it for communicating as well as d3 production

Wow thank you thats is a concept i can research for my final in my herpotology class true or not

 

[kinyonga]

The OP said..."it says recent studies show that chameleons skin reflect uv light rather than absorb it therefore the choice of using a uv emitting tube is down to the individual"...this does not say anything about the chameleon being given D3 to replace the UVB light.

You said..."I believe that good full spectrum lighting will compensate for some temperature and nutritional errors"...how will full spectrum light accomplish this?

You said..."Have you ever kept them cooler like that year round for a few years time to compare?"...not totally....I kept some in a room in the basement so it never got up as hot as the others I kept in a different room.

Regarding basking at really high temperatures...maybe there is a possibility that it will affect digestion negatively? Enzymes are denatured (the enzyme changes its shape and can't do its job) when too high....but I don't know for sure what is too high....just food for thought.

 

[fluxlizard]

The OP said..."it says recent studies show that chameleons skin reflect uv light rather than absorb it therefore the choice of using a uv emitting tube is down to the individual"...this does not say anything about the chameleon being given D3 to replace the UVB light.

Correct it does not. But if not from the light, where do you imagine it's coming from if not from the diet? If it comes from the diet, then why use the light? Please don't answer those questions, they are rhetorically used here to illustrate why I am talking about what I am talking about. I really only got involved in the discussion because someone said it is a scientifically proven fact that panther chameleons will develop mbd without full specrum ligthing, automatically, without a doubt.

You said..."I believe that good full spectrum lighting will compensate for some temperature and nutritional errors"...how will full spectrum light accomplish this?

Magic

Sorry couldn't help myself- it would be funny to see that in a published scientific paper sometime.

Seriously- it's been a while since I've read some of this stuff and I tend to try and understand the big picture rather than try to understand how to create the paint used to paint the picture, so there is only so deep a technical level that I am going to be able to go.

However, UVB certainly creates vitd3 within the lizard, I don't think that needs to be explained here. I think that has been proven by Ferguson, regardless of what a study on dead shed skin says. I also don't need to explain that D3 effects ability to absorb calcium.

So, keeping those facts in mind- if a lizard cannot absorb vit d3 effectively from diet at suboptimal temperatures, or if it is simply not given adequate d3 in the diet, but it can create it via uv radiation at those lower temperatures- there you go, nutritional problem solved for a lizard kept at suboptimal temperatures kept under uvb lighting.

I suppose another aspect of suboptimal temperature and nutrition would be immune system function-

Google turned this up concerning the immune system and UVB - I'm sure there are more info out there, but this was on the first page of the search-

http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/aspects-of-light-and-reptile-immunity.pdf

Also, lets not forget that d3 itself plays an important role in the immune system.

Regarding basking at really high temperatures...maybe there is a possibility that it will affect digestion negatively? Enzymes are denatured (the enzyme changes its shape and can't do its job) when too high....but I don't know for sure what is too high....just food for thought.

Well after hearing about your female veileds I'll definately be thinking about this more, but up until now my faith is in the lizard's body knowing what temperature it needs for optimal functioning and the lizard doing what comes naturally. I don't need to figure out how hot is too hot if I make sure cool is available and don't force the hot on the lizard and let the lizard choose for itself.

I'm not sure I'm explaining the setup clearly either- It isn't an all or nothing choice for my lizards either. It sounds like many people now are using small watt bulbs- like 40, and placing them pretty close to the hot spot where the lizard can bask. With small bulbs like that- you get a smaller area of warmed air- probably just a few inches from the hot spot the enclosure temperature has already dropped to room temperature. So the lizard can sit and be one temp, or move away and be room temp. With a higher watt bulb (even a 60 or 75) placed further away from the hot spot, you get more air warmed out away from the hot spot, so you get a true gradient of temperatures. Yes, my veileds could bask at a 100 degree spot if they want, but when a basking light is set up in the way I am talking about, they can also sit a little further away and bask where it's 90, or sit where it's 85, and if it isn't a few weeks in late spring or early fall when temps in my reptile room rose but it wasn't warm enough outdoors to move the lizards outside, they could keep going down to about 70 or even lower. The point is to avoid forcing their options and let them choose.

I certainly have my doubts that chams in Yemen of all places are keeping themselves in deep shade in the 70s and bask to warm their bodies only into the low 80s most of the year. Or that they are able to find basking sites only in the low 80s most of the year even. Or chams that prefer bushes and trees along roadways, sidewalks and gardens in the heat of a madagascan summer are basking to keep their core temp at 80 all the time either. Surely they have digestive systems that are capable of dealing with the temperatures their bodies will seek out naturally if given the chance.

Maybe I'm wrong- anyone know of a study showing either wild temps of these lizards or temperature their digestive enzymes denature?

And that's the other part- I'm talking confidently, but I realize that a lot of this is opinion and speculation on my part. Take everything with a grain of salt. I'm not set in stone about my thinking- One part of me wishes I'd kept my mouth shut on this thread because red island's post irritrated a burr that's been under my saddle for a while (lol) and I gave in and started typing - but another part of me says- wow that info kinyonga shared about those long lived female veileds and their basking temps at was worth the price of admission to me. I'll be thinking about that info for a long time.

 

[kinyonga]

Sorry, but I'm answering the question you said I shouldn't answer..."But if not from the light, where do you imagine it's coming from if not from the diet?"...of course it would need to come from the diet...but I only said what I said because I don't think the OP meant to provide it in the diet...just to omit the light...so now its clearer for anyone reading the thread.

Magic, eh??!!
You said..."another aspect of suboptimal temperature and nutrition would be immune system function"...I haven't considered my temperatures suboptimal or that my diet lacks nutrition...but I'm sure if temps and nutrition levels were cut too low the immune system would be affected.

You said..."Also, lets not forget that d3 itself plays an important role in the immune system"....I agree that vitamin D plays a part in the immune system. I'm not preventing them from getting/producing D3 and since the chameleons seem to be living long healthy lives, I don't think that I'm causing them any problems.

You said..."Surely they have digestive systems that are capable of dealing with the temperatures their bodies will seek out naturally if given the chance"...I'm sure that even if yours bask at the higher temperatures you described there is part of the day that they are at cooler temperatures.

You said..."anyone know of a study showing either wild temps of these lizards or temperature their digestive enzymes denature?"...this is not for veileds or enzyme denaturing but look at the preferred body temperatures here...
http://www.naturalsciences.be/institute/associations/rbzs_website/pdf/abstracts_130_s1/130_s1_14.pdf
And another with temperatures for several species but not veileds...it includes critical maximums and minimums...
http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/155.pdf
Here's another site...
"Chamaeleo calyptratus prefers temperatures from 23 to 35C degrees"...
http://www.naherpetology.org/pdf_files/208.pdf

Just a couple more...
"Jackson's chameleons on the average exhibit clear signs of heat stress when body temperature exceeds 33 C"...
http://www.hear.org/alienspeciesinhawaii/waringreports/chameleon.htm
"On sunny days they behaviorally adjust their body temperature to about 30 degrees C, but on overcast days they carry out their activities with a body temperature that closely matches that of their surroundings"...
http://www.bluechameleon.org/Ferguson, Gary - panther research plan.htm

You said..."wow that info kinyonga shared about those long lived female veileds and their basking temps at was worth the price of admission to me. I'll be thinking about that info for a long time"...glad I gave you something to think about! (evil grin)

 

[fluxlizard]

...I haven't considered my temperatures suboptimal or that my diet lacks nutrition...

I'm not preventing them from getting/producing D3 and since the chameleons seem to be living long healthy lives, I don't think that I'm causing them any problems.

My comments were not meant to be in any way a criticism of your husbandry specifically. I was simply answering your question about why I felt uv lighting could compensate for small mistakes in diet and temperature. My apologies if you felt I was critiquing anything you are doing (except for the part where I was really interested in the longevity of your animals and how your temps relate to that- but that's a good thing!).

I'm sure that even if yours bask at the higher temperatures you described there is part of the day that they are at cooler temperatures

Even if? LOL But as for the rest you are absolutely correct. They tend to bask right at the hottest spot for a while when the lights first come on in the morning, and then move away from it. Most of the day, when they return to bask, they bask near the hottest spot, but not directly in it. They will usually return to bask at the hottest spot after drinking, or eating, or being misted, or sometimes in the evenings for a little while. But the point is- they can get as hot as they want, when they want. And of course, being able to avoid the heat when they want is equally important.

"Chamaeleo calyptratus prefers temperatures from 23 to 35C degrees"...

Ok, here we start to get a little closer to my point. 23 would be about 73 degrees, 35 would be about 95. This is a wide range of temps, and was cited from another source within the paper you linked to. I think it pretty safe to say that the original source is talking about a temperature range of activity. That is not the same as a preferred optimal temperature (POT), which for most lizards is a much narrower range (usually less than a few degrees). To see if I could find a more exact POT, I did a quick check in one of my books and didn't find it, but I did find this-

"...the range in which the chameleon is basically active usually lies between 18 and 35 C. In contrast the preferred temperature is usually higher ... unfortunately to date there is no data available for the Yemen Chameleon...

-Wolfgang Schmidt 2001 Chameleo calytratus The Yemen Chameleon

So, from this, we might assume the preferred temperature these guys are trying to achieve when basking is probably slightly above 95 degrees.

I don't think that anything above 73 is going to be a great basking temperature that will provide optimal immune system function and ability to utilize nutrition for a veiled. If that is the case, we can toss the basking lights out and save some money.

Side note here- I've been to the general region of florida where the veileds in that paper lived. It is HOT there in the summer, even in the shade.

"On sunny days they behaviorally adjust their body temperature to about 30 degrees C, but on overcast days they carry out their activities with a body temperature that closely matches that of their surroundings"...

Well, that seems obvious, what else can they do on rainy days?

Does this mean that they are able to absorb nutrition at maximum efficiency or that their immune system is functioning at maximum potential on rainy days? I rather doubt it. Again, if that is the case, we don't need basking lights at all.

Here at last we have a true preferred optimal temperature for panthers. 30 is about 86. That does not mean that the basking sites they are using in nature are 86 degrees. It means they may often be warmer than that, and that the chameleon sits there until he is 86 and then moves out of the heat and gets on with his day. It also doesn't mean he won't occasionally bask until his body is a little warmer than that or a little cooler than that. So, if we want our panther in captivity to operate at the temperature his body wants to achieve so it can function at maximum performance and function in the way his ancestors for thousands of years have functioned, we want to provide a basking site that is a few degrees warmer than 86 (90 might be nice).

Similarly for calyptratus- if their preferred optimal temp is slightly above 95, we don't want to provide a basking site that is 95 if we want them to function as they would in nature, we want to provide them a site that is a few degrees warmer (100 might be nice).

80-85 for a veiled is much cooler than this. Again, I'm not being critical of your particular husbandry, and in fact you can bet $$ that this coming winter will see me overwintering a few females at your temps to learn more about your success.

glad I gave you something to think about! (evil grin)

Now I have even more to think about. LOL Thank you very much for all the pdfs- I have only had a few quick minutes to skim them, but I will enjoy taking my time reading them and digesting them.

 

[fluxlizard]

It just occurred to me that this is now waaaaaay off topic from the thread.
We've drifted from skins ability to absorb UVB to basking temperatures somehow. My apologies to the OP.

I think I've done a pretty good job explaining my thinking, and have a pretty good idea of kinyongas thinking. I think I should probably bow out at this point as a courtesy. I'm not trying to get the last word kinyonga- if you have anything to add that hasn't already been said, I'll happily read it. I'm just not going to comment again.

 

[kinyonga]

You are right...I've been feeling bad about moving away from the original thread too...so I'm going to start a new one...here it is...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/con...leonforums-com-chameleons-skin-reflect-37649/

veildowner...I think that chameleons' skin both reflects and absorbs light....and I don't agree with not providing UVB light for a chameleon. Even if supplementing with D3 can substitute for exposure to UVB, its hard to balance and to guarantee that the chameleon is not being overdosed with the D3.

Reflectance...
http://www.sebastiangehring.de/gehringwitte2007.pdf

 

[veildowner]

i forgot about this thread thought id post back to say what ever that care sheet said about a chams skin reflecting uv il still be using 1 no matter what

 

[IHaveAJackson]

I would say the care sheet was written by the owner of the store so then the chameleon dies and he makes more money.