CLIMATE OF THE NATURAL HABITAT OF THE MIGHTY YEMEN CHAMELEON

[CasqueAbove]

I think temperature plays a part too...but I also think diet is a part of longevity too.

Also found this to be interesting......
https://phys.org/news/2019-10-2c-warmer-lizards-healthily.html

I would agree. It is something I have been thinking about. With changing season, availability and verity of insects change.

I get your point, and don't disagree with the thought experiment (I've often responded to questions here citing climatological conditions), but on a forum where the main topic of discussion is keeping animals in captivity, I don't see how taking enclosures* out of the equation is pragmatic. YMMV.

If I've been too pedantic, I apologize.

*Personally, I prefer "enclosure" to "cage".

​

Yes you missed the point as usual.
It isn’t about what is easiest, but what they need.
You can’t change what they need based on your convince.

I said enclosures to be handled individually dependent on the individual location.

If you can’t provide proper, why keep the animals?

They are “exotic pets “ for a reason

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Yes you missed the point as usual.

P-K-B What part of, "I get your point, and don't disagree" did I not get?

It isn’t about what is easiest, but what they need.
You can’t change what they need based on your convince.

Where did I say anything about easiest, changing needs, or convenience?
I didn't, nor was I taliking (or even thinking) about those things. IDK where you got that.

I said enclosures to be handled individually dependent on the individual location.

And I said, "I don't see how taking enclosures out of the equation is pragmatic. YMMV."

If you can’t provide proper, why keep the animals?

How do you provide "proper" without an enclosure?

They are “exotic pets “ for a reason

There are a lot of reasons. ONE is that most of them need to be kept in special enclosures.

It looks to me like we're essentially in violent agreement.

 

[CasqueAbove]

P-K-B What part of, "I get your point, and don't disagree" did I not get?


Where did I say anything about easiest, changing needs, or convenience?
I didn't, nor was I taliking (or even thinking) about those things. IDK where you got that.


And I said, "I don't see how taking enclosures out of the equation is pragmatic. YMMV."


How do you provide "proper" without an enclosure?


There are a lot of reasons. ONE is that most of them need to be kept in special enclosures.

It looks to me like we're essentially in violent agreement.

No we are not.

 

[PetNcs]

Yes it is formulated a bot harsh, let me explain what I mean. I soecifically refer to the recommended temperatire that reflect nothing

the care Sheet here makes just blank recommendation on the recommeded temperature referring to no climatic data.

it is very irresponsible and wrong to recommend the basking temperatures 90 to 95° which is the temperature 15° above the maximum that is reached in the wild ever. It is also recommended to keep the basking lights on all the time instead of limiting them to these times when they in reality bask. The result of this wrong and “based on the nothing” recommendation yes the suffering of the animals in captivity and substantial shortage of their lifespan.
I see my mission in correcting the wrong advice and acting in the interest of the animals against ignorance and irresponsible advice acting agaist animal
Welfare.
I have delivered enough proofs that my statements are correct IMHO.
Therefore I agree with you but this comment is aggressive and I mean it very aggressively indeed.

 

[PetNcs]

I'm hearing rap lyrics in my head, and I don't even ascribe to that (but) particular fetish...


I think this is a really good point, yet it makes me feel both better and worse at the same time.

I've waited (literally) a lifetime to get a chameleon because I wanted to do it "right," and things just weren't—such is life. Now that I have the time (retired) and resources to do it "right," I'm now finding myself vexed by this conundrum quandary: Will "'prep for your area' and hope for the best" be good enough, or should I abandon this lifelong (now bucket list) dream entirely? (This is a rhetorical question for my own introspection.)

Dang. ?

you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year

 

[Mrjamwin]

you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year

I agree 100%

 

[CasqueAbove]

you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year

I agree 100% as well. Long ago I learned to take a different approach to my animal husbandry. I now do it sort of backwards. I set up the basic environment to what I can accommodate. I then see where the parameters are at, then pick an animal that is best suited for said environment.

I have avoided many animals over many years simply because where I lived and the natural conditions of temp and humidity.

We must adjust to them.

My son got a chinchilla for his birthday, I bought an AC for his room. I had been telling him no till I could provide propper environment.

I have Chams now because I can. My local environment is conducive to what they need. If I lived other places I could not do what I do.

 

[PetNcs]

I agree 100% as well. Long ago I learned to take a different approach to my animal husbandry. I now do it sort of backwards. I set up the basic environment to what I can accommodate. I then see where the parameters are at, then pick an animal that is best suited for said environment.

I have avoided many animals over many years simply because where I lived and the natural conditions of temp and humidity.

We must adjust to them.

My son got a chinchilla for his birthday, I bought an AC for his room. I had been telling him no till I could provide propper environment.

I have Chams now because I can. My local environment is conducive to what they need. If I lived other places I could not do what I do.

this is what I call ethics and responsibility
My deepest respect

 

[Highway61]

Limit the basking to maximum 20minutes in the morning and same in the late afternoon only. Do NOT bake them all the day under running basking lamps.

With a 48" vertical enclosure ad the basking lamp at the very top, the cham will have cooler spaces through out the enclosure to chill. Giving the cham the option to climb to the top, when they need to warm up is not baking them all day.

 

[PetNcs]

With a 48" vertical enclosure ad the basking lamp at the very top, the cham will have cooler spaces through out the enclosure to chill. Giving the cham the option to climb to the top, when they need to warm up is not baking them all day.

believe me or not in fact it IS

the provlem is a total lack of understanding of the lurpose if chameleon behavior... I got shaved by millions and millions of years and we think our observations in the captivity are more valid than this one they are not heavily misunderstand what they are actually doing and make a completely wrong interpretations

1. if chameleons want to bask in the wild: where does ge go?
Climbing up?!
NO! Because it is an absolute nonsense
He goes tk the side!
To catch dieect, not by the leaves filtered, sumshine!
The sunshine is not more intense higher than lower in the bush it is absolutely same.

in captivity, they behave sortnof same
Bit we do not
Give
Them enough soace and we hive them a completely dofferent envkronment and heat from bulbs
They do not understand! They are hot in 20cm and absolutely cold in 40cm distance
Thay aee absolutely confused!
they xan NOT efficiently thermoregullate because they can jot do what rhey learnt for millions of years
2. We iffer them absolutelybterrible cages that rhey do notnhnderstand either

most xages I see are heavilu planted below and empty anove
But they hate it jeavily planted!
They do jot hide between leaves!
They hide in the shade of canopie of bushes and trees, so they need space.

our cages are extremely dark below. Because whatever great source of kight yiu ise, the intensity of ligjt diminished with the square of the distance from the source. So, yoj eother (like vast majority oeople do) ise ligjts which are shining aoak on the top but then the light down is miserable. Ot, yiu use much tronger lamps, but then you damage the eyes of rhe chameleons if they come too close.

So, what the poor chameleons do?
They tend To climb UP in the stupidxage!

 

[PetNcs]

believe me or not in fact it IS

the provlem is a total lack of understanding of the lurpose if chameleon behavior... I got shaved by millions and millions of years and we think our observations in the captivity are more valid than this one they are not heavily misunderstand what they are actually doing and make a completely wrong interpretations

1. if chameleons want to bask in the wild: where does ge go?
Climbing up?!
NO! Because it is an absolute nonsense
He goes tk the side!
To catch dieect, not by the leaves filtered, sumshine!
The sunshine is not more intense higher than lower in the bush it is absolutely same.

in captivity, they behave sortnof same
Bit we do not
Give
Them enough soace and we hive them a completely dofferent envkronment and heat from bulbs
They do not understand! They are hot in 20cm and absolutely cold in 40cm distance
Thay aee absolutely confused!
they xan NOT efficiently thermoregullate because they can jot do what rhey learnt for millions of years
2. We iffer them absolutelybterrible cages that rhey do notnhnderstand either

most xages I see are heavilu planted below and empty anove
But they hate it jeavily planted!
They do jot hide between leaves!
They hide in the shade of canopie of bushes and trees, so they need space.

our cages are extremely dark below. Because whatever great source of kight yiu ise, the intensity of ligjt diminished with the square of the distance from the source. So, yoj eother (like vast majority oeople do) ise ligjts which are shining aoak on the top but then the light down is miserable. Ot, yiu use much tronger lamps, but then you damage the eyes of rhe chameleons if they come too close.

So, what the poor chameleons do?
They tend To climb UP in the stupidxage!

Why they climb up?

to eacape rhe darkness and too Dense foliage of the bottom area
And
To get tk
Somehere wherenis Space and enough light!

thiugh: UP!

and hewe we go,
Inevitanley, thisnis the baking area.

so, rhey HAVE TO BASK,
while they do NOT WANT TO.


They did not
Come UP
To bask! Rhey never do!
Even in the wild!
They climb UP for
Different reasond
But NOT fir basking’

THISNIS WHYssu we bake them.
And we fould ourselves saying: we give them the choice!

what a choice? In half cubic
Metre, which is wrongky and unnaturally equipped?!!!

They neke themselves to death.
I insist

 

[Highway61]

believe me or not in fact it IS

the provlem is a total lack of understanding of the lurpose if chameleon behavior... I got shaved by millions and millions of years and we think our observations in the captivity are more valid than this one they are not heavily misunderstand what they are actually doing and make a completely wrong interpretations

1. if chameleons want to bask in the wild: where does ge go?
Climbing up?!
NO! Because it is an absolute nonsense
He goes tk the side!
To catch dieect, not by the leaves filtered, sumshine!
The sunshine is not more intense higher than lower in the bush it is absolutely same.

in captivity, they behave sortnof same
Bit we do not
Give
Them enough soace and we hive them a completely dofferent envkronment and heat from bulbs
They do not understand! They are hot in 20cm and absolutely cold in 40cm distance
Thay aee absolutely confused!
they xan NOT efficiently thermoregullate because they can jot do what rhey learnt for millions of years
2. We iffer them absolutelybterrible cages that rhey do notnhnderstand either

most xages I see are heavilu planted below and empty anove
But they hate it jeavily planted!
They do jot hide between leaves!
They hide in the shade of canopie of bushes and trees, so they need space.

our cages are extremely dark below. Because whatever great source of kight yiu ise, the intensity of ligjt diminished with the square of the distance from the source. So, yoj eother (like vast majority oeople do) ise ligjts which are shining aoak on the top but then the light down is miserable. Ot, yiu use much tronger lamps, but then you damage the eyes of rhe chameleons if they come too close.

So, what the poor chameleons do?
They tend To climb UP in the stupidxage!

Thanks for the detailed explaination. I'm always interested in learning what I don't know.

 

[jamest0o0]

Just because you don't live in an area that has the same climate as chameleon's natural habitats doesn't mean it can't be replicated.

 

[Highway61]

If a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more.

Okay, Germans are more intelligent than Americans, not surprising
But what are they doing differently that we're not for that longevity gap to be so vast?

 

[PetNcs]

Just because you don't live in an area that has the same climate as chameleon's natural habitats doesn't mean it can't be replicated.

ansolutely true
And this was in no sense the message

the message is
PROVIDE IT!
if you can lrovide it, keep them

if yij fail, anscond from meeping them.

I Do Agree with you!

 

[CasqueAbove]

Just because you don't live in an area that has the same climate as chameleon's natural habitats doesn't mean it can't be replicated.

Very true. When I lived in Las Vegas I did not keep any tropical type herps. Not to say it can't be done, usually just some money and ingenuity. I lived in pahrump in a double wide with under powered central air that would freeze up.

Now say I had a well built home with good central air, such that the internal environment stays consistent. We can usually add a little heat or humidity to achieve the right balance.

So I guess it would be specific to not only where, but how you live.

It just gets easier the closer to their habitat.



I did not mean to imply it cant be done, just harder.

 

[jamest0o0]

Very true. When I lived in Las Vegas I did not keep any tropical type herps. Not to say it can't be done, usually just some money and ingenuity. I lived in pahrump in a double wide with under powered central air that would freeze up.

Now say I had a well built home with good central air, such that the internal environment stays consistent. We can usually add a little heat or humidity to achieve the right balance.

So I guess it would be specific to not only where, but how you live.

It just gets easier the closer to their habitat.



I did not mean to imply it cant be done, just harder.

Gotcha, I wasn't being a smartass either, I agree with what you and petr are saying, I just wanted to mention it's definitely possible in many different climates.

 

[jamest0o0]

Okay, Germans are more intelligent than Americans, not surprising
But what are they doing differently that we're not for that longevity gap to be so vast?

Was just about to the same

 

[kinyonga]

@PetNcs said..."If a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more"...males or females or both?

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

you know, I am well known to be black and white so I will nit dissapoint you here...

i am a firm believer that it IS our OBLIGATION to give the animals that we enslave OPTIMAL conditions fir their life. It is an ethical norm and in EU, it is also a LAW.

So, i understand that in some areas it is Easier to provide the correct parameters and in some it is harder. And I don’t care. Same, as the animals do not care and they will die and suffer if we will not provide them with what is necessary for their healthy and happy life.

so, if you decide to keep any species of a chameleon you’re obliged to provide the necessary conditions. If you cannot do so it is wrong approach to force and rape the animals to accept wrong conditions with the hope that they will survive somehow. If you cannot afford or cannot make it happen that the proper conditions are met, you should abscond from keeping the animals.
I do not understand why in the case of Chamaeleon it is such a big issue to understand this. Everyone can understand that if you have a horse you need to have grass fkr it to eat and if you have only sand and no grass you cannot have the horse. But people tend to force a chameleon to adapt to any environment which is completely wrong
IT causes thousands and thousands of innocent chameleons finding the death sentenceIn the human ignorance Every year

I think you have misconstrued. I've already said i forwent keeping a chameleon for most of my life because I knew I could not do it properly. Since retiring, I've done considerable research to determine which—if any—species I can care for properly. From that research, I've already determined that I cannot keep a Jackson's or Yemen, as I cannot provide the necessary drop in nighttime temperatures. This leaves me with a panther chameleon, and so far, I've seen nothing on your sites or elsewhere to indicate I cannot provide the proper environment.

Care https://www.chameleons.info/en/furcifer-pardalis/

UVB light source: T5 HO 12 hours a day, 5-12% according to cage height
Visible light: Full spectrum or natural light, 12 hours per day
Basking spot: Low 80s F (27-30°C), 1 hour max 2 times a day
Temperature at daytime: Mid 70s F (21-23°C)
Temperature at night: Max Low 70s F (20-22°C), Ideally 60s F (below 20°C)
Humidity at daytime: 50-70%
Humidity at night: 100%, fog
Hydration: Fogger at night, Hand misting, Dripper
Food type: Crickets, Soldier Flies, Roaches, No vegetables, No fruits
Food volume: Juveniles no limit, Adults max 2 crickets daily
Supplementation - Each meal: Plain Calcium, Bee Pollen,
Supplementation - Once in two weeks: Calcium with D3, Multivitamin
Cleaning: Clean up poop and food, remnants, sanitize hands

I can provide this—no problem.