CLIMATE OF THE NATURAL HABITAT OF THE MIGHTY YEMEN CHAMELEON

[DeremensisBlue]

well I do not see here a big contradiction, i just present facts...
C calyptratus lives far N of equator and lives predominantly between 2000 and 2500m all, while T. jackson ii lives on the equator and at heights of approx 1400-1850 m a.s.l. so, who is more montane??? The low temps reach much lower levels than tax are ever exposed to and the wintertime is substantially colder ijh Yemen than any of the all out stable climate on equator

The source for the Chamaeleo calyptratus natural history and husbandry that I present is based on my understanding of what Petr reports. I make great efforts to give the best information available at the time and the care requirements I used at the time of this video were taken from a care sheet I did with Petr. I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus natural history available and will adjust what I say to match what he says about natural conditions. I have no experience in Yemen and I could find only two others in the chameleon world that did. So, in-person reports from the field are very sparse.

I believe the reason why there is so much discrepancy in C. calyptratus caresheets is that
1) there has not been much travel to Yemen due to the constant civil war and all of our thoughts of Yemen are hot and harsh. So that is what we would shoot for (hot, but not so much harsh)
2) Most care requirements were produced with the mindset that bigger bodies were better. As breeders produced C. calyptratus ad nauseum there was not the concept that bigger would mean unhealthy and shorter lives. So we are coming off of some past baggage of deep seeded assumptions which take time to uproot.

So now we are experimenting with lower temperatures and less food. Although I believe in this as much as Petr does, you will see the caresheets I produce trailing his as I have a more cautious approach and am concerned that I do not know where the line is between just enough and too little. This is a personal choice and I acknowledge Petr will be ahead of me on this even though I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus information. And that is not to say I do not have confidence in him or what he says. I have to be able to personally feel confident not only in the information itself, but in the ability for the general public to execute according to my directions. We all have a responsibility to advise to our confidence level and not beyond. He is one of a number of people who I am in contact with to figure out a reliable guideline for how much to energize the chameleon (ie. heat and food).

The generally accepted husbandry of C. calyptratus is in transition and I hope the caresheets in the next two years will be able to be ones that produce fit chameleons with females that produce reasonable clutch sizes only when fertilized.
Bill

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

2) Most care requirements were produced with the mindset that bigger was better. As breeders produced C. calyptratus ad nauseum there was not the concept that bigger would mean unhealthy and shorter lives. So we are coming off of some past baggage of deep seeded assumptions which take time to uproot.

Would you please expound on this? Are you saying (now) that a 2x2x4 enclosure is too big for a veiled chameleon? Or that keeping one in a larger (than 2x2x4) enclosure could result in an unhealthy outcome? How does that reconcile with their natural state being the all outdoors? I'm trying to understand.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Would you please expound on this? Are you saying (now) that a 2x2x4 enclosure is too big for a veiled chameleon? Or that keeping one in a larger (than 2x2x4) enclosure could result in an unhealthy outcome? How does that reconcile with their natural state being the all outdoors? I'm trying to understand.

I was referring to body size in this case...I will edit the original statement as that phrase is used to refer to cage size usually. As far as cage size, bigger is better.

We tend to equate large body size and large clutch size to health. While there is some truth to this, there wasn't any general concept of when the health part stopped and the unhealthy began.

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

I was referring to body size in this case...I will edit the original statement as that phrase is used to refer to cage size usually. As far as cage size, bigger is better.

We tend to equate large body size and large clutch size to health. While there is some truth to this, there wasn't any general concept of when the health part stopped and the unhealthy began.

This, I understand. Same situation with giant dog breeds—and breeders who've tried to create giants out of breeds never intended to be that large.

Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Mrjamwin]

The source for the Chamaeleo calyptratus natural history and husbandry that I present is based on my understanding of what Petr reports. I make great efforts to give the best information available at the time and the care requirements I used at the time of this video were taken from a care sheet I did with Petr. I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus natural history available and will adjust what I say to match what he says about natural conditions. I have no experience in Yemen and I could find only two others in the chameleon world that did. So, in-person reports from the field are very sparse.

I believe the reason why there is so much discrepancy in C. calyptratus caresheets is that
1) there has not been much travel to Yemen due to the constant civil war and all of our thoughts of Yemen are hot and harsh. So that is what we would shoot for (hot, but not so much harsh)
2) Most care requirements were produced with the mindset that bigger bodies were better. As breeders produced C. calyptratus ad nauseum there was not the concept that bigger would mean unhealthy and shorter lives. So we are coming off of some past baggage of deep seeded assumptions which take time to uproot.

So now we are experimenting with lower temperatures and less food. Although I believe in this as much as Petr does, you will see the caresheets I produce trailing his as I have a more cautious approach and am concerned that I do not know where the line is between just enough and too little. This is a personal choice and I acknowledge Petr will be ahead of me on this even though I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus information. And that is not to say I do not have confidence in him or what he says. I have to be able to personally feel confident not only in the information itself, but in the ability for the general public to execute according to my directions. We all have a responsibility to advise to our confidence level and not beyond. He is one of a number of people who I am in contact with to figure out a reliable guideline for how much to energize the chameleon (ie. heat and food).

The generally accepted husbandry of C. calyptratus is in transition and I hope the caresheets in the next two years will be able to be ones that produce fit chameleons with females that produce reasonable clutch sizes only when fertilized.
Bill

I appreciate what you and Petr are doing in this field. Thank you

 

[PetNcs]

The source for the Chamaeleo calyptratus natural history and husbandry that I present is based on my understanding of what Petr reports. I make great efforts to give the best information available at the time and the care requirements I used at the time of this video were taken from a care sheet I did with Petr. I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus natural history available and will adjust what I say to match what he says about natural conditions. I have no experience in Yemen and I could find only two others in the chameleon world that did. So, in-person reports from the field are very sparse.

I believe the reason why there is so much discrepancy in C. calyptratus caresheets is that
1) there has not been much travel to Yemen due to the constant civil war and all of our thoughts of Yemen are hot and harsh. So that is what we would shoot for (hot, but not so much harsh)
2) Most care requirements were produced with the mindset that bigger bodies were better. As breeders produced C. calyptratus ad nauseum there was not the concept that bigger would mean unhealthy and shorter lives. So we are coming off of some past baggage of deep seeded assumptions which take time to uproot.

So now we are experimenting with lower temperatures and less food. Although I believe in this as much as Petr does, you will see the caresheets I produce trailing his as I have a more cautious approach and am concerned that I do not know where the line is between just enough and too little. This is a personal choice and I acknowledge Petr will be ahead of me on this even though I consider him the best source of C. calyptratus information. And that is not to say I do not have confidence in him or what he says. I have to be able to personally feel confident not only in the information itself, but in the ability for the general public to execute according to my directions. We all have a responsibility to advise to our confidence level and not beyond. He is one of a number of people who I am in contact with to figure out a reliable guideline for how much to energize the chameleon (ie. heat and food).

The generally accepted husbandry of C. calyptratus is in transition and I hope the caresheets in the next two years will be able to be ones that produce fit chameleons with females that produce reasonable clutch sizes only when fertilized.
Bill

thank you Bill for the warm
And acknowledging words.
It is sometimea not easy to fight in the fromt line... Ilove your style, Making things digestable especially in the US based community, where you are an a solute master in.
I hope for many years of mutual inspiring and as result changing the chameleonoculture towards modern, even better times. I am the black and white guy presenting sometimes apolitically too surprizing facts or Opinions, and I believe it is my role. I am only driven by deep respect and love to all living beings,
To humanity, to chameleonkind and to our planet.

 

[PetNcs]

I was referring to body size in this case...I will edit the original statement as that phrase is used to refer to cage size usually. As far as cage size, bigger is better.

We tend to equate large body size and large clutch size to health. While there is some truth to this, there wasn't any general concept of when the health part stopped and the unhealthy began.

FYI
In Germany, it is regulated by law.
Th absolute minimum cage size is
Height: 4HBL
Width: 4HBL
Depth: 2,5HBL
Where HBL stands for head and body length, measured from tip of snout to cloaca

so, to speaking in numbers,
For an adult of total length of say 20in,

the minimum size would be
40in by 40in by 25in

 

[kinyonga]

Still wondering....
@PetNcs said..."If a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more"...males or females or both?

 

[NashansCamos]

FYI
In Germany, it is regulated by law.
Th absolute minimum cage size is
Height: 4HBL
Width: 4HBL
Depth: 2,5HBL
Where HBL stands for head and body length, measured from tip of snout to cloaca

so, to speaking in numbers,
For an adult of total length of say 20in,

the minimum size would be
40in by 40in by 25in

Wow I have an adult female in something smaller than that. Mine's in a 2x1.5x3 (24x18x36) but she is often free ranged

 

[NashansCamos]

it almost applies to females, females can get heavily exhausted by wrong caltive management and lay too many eggs, which shortent their lide span, but the oldest female I know abou is still alive and is 14. Not mine however.

the general US recommendations shortens their lives tremendously.

@kinyonga

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks @NashansCamos !

 

[bbyoda]

I want to change my basking times and temps per the recommendations outlined here. As I prepare to set my timers (and try to re-wrangle the mist king timer...lol), I find myself a little confused though. If I follow this schedule, would that be a correct application?

1. Fogging at night from 1am to dawn, 6:30am
2. Misting for 1 min before lights on, 6:45am
3. UVB and plant lights on at 7am
4. Basking on at 7:30am
5. Basking off at 8:30am
6. UVB and plant lights off at 7pm
7. Misting for 1 min after lights off, 8pm

Do the precise times of misting before or after lights off matter?

Does "1 hour max 2x per day" mean "1 hour of basking total, split between 2 sessions per day" or does it mean "2 distinct one hour sessions per day"?

If it's the latter, when during the afternoon should the second basking hour be?

Should I consider feeding at a particular time in the morning to aid in digestion? Before basking?

Thanks everyone! I did try reading through both Bill and Petr's website after reading this thread a few times and still came up with questions. So I figure it's worth asking in case others want to adopt these care practices.

 

[CasqueAbove]

I want to change my basking times and temps per the recommendations outlined here. As I prepare to set my timers (and try to re-wrangle the mist king timer...lol), I find myself a little confused though. If I follow this schedule, would that be a correct application?

1. Fogging at night from 1am to dawn, 6:30am
2. Misting for 1 min before lights on, 6:45am
3. UVB and plant lights on at 7am
4. Basking on at 7:30am
5. Basking off at 8:30am
6. UVB and plant lights off at 7pm
7. Misting for 1 min after lights off, 8pm

Do the precise times of misting before or after lights off matter?

Does "1 hour max 2x per day" mean "1 hour of basking total, split between 2 sessions per day" or does it mean "2 distinct one hour sessions per day"?

If it's the latter, when during the afternoon should the second basking hour be?

Should I consider feeding at a particular time in the morning to aid in digestion? Before basking?

Thanks everyone! I did try reading through both Bill and Petr's website after reading this thread a few times and still came up with questions. So I figure it's worth asking in case others want to adopt these care practices.

On misting, I vary simulating seasons. This is not necessary, I live in Oregon, and with our house set up it is simply easier to work with the seasons than against them. So how often you mist will depend on where you live. The schedule you lay out is what I use. I just add more misting in the warm summer, as our ambient goes from about 72-74f to 76 - 78 in summer, and our warm season is dry, where theirs is wet.


As far as precise times I would say it does not matter, too much but it is kind of a trick question.
In my experience my female is on a timer, Last winter I changed my start times. I noticed far more yellow in her urates. After a bit it was fine again. My theory was that she had grown accustomed to drinking at a given time and missed her drinks for a bit.
But That is the worst I have seen from changing times. not a big deal.

On basking, my set up is a bit different, but on both mine there seems to be the morning bask and the evening bask. If it is a warm night only getting down to 71-72 my female doesn't always bask under the heat.

Some say feed earlier so they can digest. Others suggest it doesn't mater. The theroy behind "time to digest" comes from the idea that if digestion does not take place in time, the food in the gut can turn toxic.

As far as I have ever seen this can occur in snakes at least, but it is caused be inadequate care and overall temps being too low.

I feed any time before the second basking hour.

 

[kinyonga]

@PetNcs said..."a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more"....what are they doing to keep them living that long that we don't do specifically?

 

[Highway61]

@PetNcs said..."a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more"....what are they doing to keep them living that long that we don't do specifically?

I asked the same on page 3, still haven't gotten an answer.

 

[CasqueAbove]

this is what I call ethics and responsibility
My deepest respect

OK so I can't claim pure ethics here. I just hate to fail and see animals suffer. I just make it easy on myself.
But I do thank you.

 

[CasqueAbove]

@PetNcs said..."a Yemen chameleon reaches 7 years everyone is applauding. In Germany, it is a standard that on the strongly regulated and educated market they live normally 10 years and more"....what are they doing to keep them living that long that we don't do specifically?

I think he is referring to American standards.

I think You prove the point in that yours live to these ranges. In america if you do not do real research 3-5 years for female-male respectively. I was told this by breades a reptile shows, that were selling them.
Sadly that is why I got veilds first, I thought oh in a few years then I will get a panther. So that was way off.
Fortunately I came to love them the most.
The primary difference I see in "Basic American" care, like what you get from petco or the like, and You , Peter, and Others is 1) temp changes are never suggested. It is said to keep them above 80 all the time. though there may be some discussion about the use of foggers, one consistency is the night time drop in temp and humidity 90+ at night.
2) basic pet store care tells you that the compact florescent are perfect. Well we know this is wrong.
3) "Supplements weekly" is their guide line on nutrition.

If You do research you find more, but most don't. It is the sad truth here. It is not just Chams either.

 

[PetNcs]

I asked the same on page 3, still haven't gotten an answer.

I have explained already
they keep them according to the climate in Yemen
Do not overheat them
Do not overfeed Them And keep them in enclosures on a average double size than in the US
It is illegal to let them suffer in bad conditions and rhe law is executed

 

[kinyonga]

When I asked the question about the longevity of the Yemen chameleons in Europe I was hoping for a different kind of detail....like...in Europe...
What specific lights do they use? Where are they placed?
What supplements and how often for each?
What do they feed the insects and what insects (scientific names please) do they feed the chameleons?
When are the basking lights on and at what temperature is the basking area and is it at the top of the cage?
Etc. Etc.

 

[jamest0o0]

I have explained already
they keep them according to the climate in Yemen
Do not overheat them
Do not overfeed Them And keep them in enclosures on a average double size than in the US
It is illegal to let them suffer in bad conditions and rhe law is executed

With being that strict about it, there are far more variables at play. Like the type of keepers that will have them are probably much more serious and prepared, the breeders may have better quality animals, etc

I don't know if I believe their best keepers are doing anything particular that would cause such a serious lifespan difference.