Coccidia... Help and cleaning advice. Please..

[jamest0o0]

Not saying her feeders have it, however Dubia (all roaches) are a carrier.

Scracth above, I had them mixed up, I googled it to be sure. So crickets are the carrier of Coccidia, Roaches carry pinworms not Coccidia.

The parasite doesn't use them as a host, like it would a Cham, so their immune system doesn't fight it off, the roaches are an intermediate host. It can live without a host for up to 2 years as well. It's scary stuff, I have never had to deal with Coccidia thank gosh, that is to me the scariest one.

Also Beman, you can look into F10 Vetrinary Santizor. This thread https://www.beardeddragon.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=235387, seems to say it works well, and also states Ammonia does not.

I have seen F10 as a cure for RIs in snakes, never tried with a Cham. However they put the snake in a bin with a fogger and fog the diluted F10 and it 3 times in a day will cure the RI I guess. So it is reptile safe, and may be nice to have around. It's expensive as heck though.

Not being confrontational here, but my thoughts:

So dubia roaches . Com where she gets them is all infected? Wouldn't this be out by now from all the other people that order from them? That's why I said, the poop would have to be smeared on them(regarding them being a carrier). Immune systems will still fight off foreign objects/pathogens/etc I guess I don't know for sure to say, but I just haven't heard of a case of coccidia ever coming from roaches, if it did, I'd expect the whole batch to spread it, but that doesn't make sense since her other cham is fine. And the amount of time that she's had the animal wouldn't make sense to have full blown coccidia already. We can jump through whatever hoops to blame this on the feeders, but the fact of the matter it is VERY unlikely. I guess that single dubia would have had to eaten or touched infected feces... I'll stop posting here though, I don't want drama on this thread, just hard for me to hold my tongue at times...

It's important to know the source so you're not reinfecting obviously...


@cyberlocc I respect you a lot, if we want to discuss further I'd be happy to have a friendly PM chat with you, no hard feelings of course.

 

[cyberlocc]

Not being confrontational here, but my thoughts:

So dubia roaches . Com where she gets them is all infected? Wouldn't this be out by now from all the other people that order from them? That's why I said, the poop would have to be smeared on them(regarding them being a carrier). Immune systems will still fight off foreign objects/pathogens/etc I guess I don't know for sure to say, but I just haven't heard of a case of coccidia ever coming from roaches, if it did, I'd expect the whole batch to spread it, but that doesn't make sense since her other cham is fine. And the amount of time that she's had the animal wouldn't make sense to have full blown coccidia already. We can jump through whatever hoops to blame this on the feeders, but the fact of the matter it is VERY unlikely. I guess that single dubia would have had to eaten or touched infected feces... I'll stop posting here though, I don't want drama on this thread, just hard for me to hold my tongue at times...

It's important to know the source so you're not reinfecting obviously...


@cyberlocc I respect you a lot, if we want to discuss further I'd be happy to have a friendly PM chat with you, no hard feelings of course.

You are correct, if one roach in a colony has it, they will all have it. The few people I have seen have feeders that somehow got parasites, the entire colony had to be destroyed.

It's easy to find out, as long as Beman has roaches from the last batch, you can have all your feeders checked. The vet can check a Roach, Cricket, Worm for parasites. Just like a fecal.

It might cost more, I'm not sure, but it might be worth it to verify, especially if Beman gets it, and hasn't shared anything.

 

[JacksJill]

I am writing this up for a blog entry but it is a jumble and I don't want it out there until I have finished it and have solid references. I promise I will go through it later today and get some of the relevant parts on this thread.

 

[Beman]

Ok just heard from the pharmacy. So the meds will be $80, that was a shocker. They are trying to get the first round for today and in 48 hours done now so that I get it by noon today. Otherwise I will not get it until 4pm. Keep your fingers crossed for me that it comes at noon.

 

[CamoChameleonsHuman]

Ok just heard from the pharmacy. So the meds will be $80, that was a shocker. They are trying to get the first round for today and in 48 hours done now so that I get it by noon today. Otherwise I will not get it until 4pm. Keep your fingers crossed for me that it comes at noon.

There's no fingers crossed forum emoji but I promise you all fingers are crossed and so are my piggies.

 

[JacksJill]

I bought hand sanitizer as well.

You will need to wash your hands with soap and water between cages hand sanitizer will not kill coccidia. You need to remove it from your hands and wash it down the drain.

Don't PM, share! We want to know too.

Here is what I have so far it needs more editing but it may be useful. Forgive any typos and run-on sentences.

Blog rough draft
"No matter what products you use, read and follow the manufacturers directions and pay special attention to the warnings. Used incorrectly they could harm you or your pets. Never ever use bleach and ammonia together.

First thing throw out anything that is porous, branches, plants, soil, rubber vines, etc. Then toss anything that is cheap and easy to replace feeder cups and the like. It's not worth reinfecting your chameleon by holding on to this stuff. If it can't be scrubbed and immersed in strong chemicals it has to go. This is the main difference between deep cleaning and a disinfection. In disinfecting we want to avoid exposing a new animal to anything infectious the previous occupant may have had. It should be a fresh start.

If you are dealing with CANV I would also dump or disinfect anything that touched the outside of the cage. Replace any cage covers (plastic sheeting) and disinfect the lamp reflectors and cords. Don't immerse electrical equipment but do wipe them down when they are unplugged. I would wipe down the walls in the area of the cage as well. Fungal spores can travel on dust motes so it's best to try to reduce any possible sources.

Review the basics of cleaning in Part 1 they still apply. The soap and water scrub down from Part 3 is our next step. Hot soapy water and a thorough rinsing are the foundation of disinfection if you want your disinfectants to work.
Basic Disinfection



Coccidia

I have it on good authority, two board certified reptile specialists, that coccidia can be a commensal organism (part of their normal flora) and only needs to be treated if the chameleon isn't doing well. If you have a strain that is causing trouble I will go over some possible ways to eliminate it in the environment. I personally prefer to keep it out of my collection entirely. I would rather treat an animal for parasites when it is healthy than wait until it is debilitated with something else and have to treat then. That is a decision you will have to make for yourself with your veterinarian. Either way an infected animal can continue to reinfect itself in a contaminated cage.

In the official literature there is very little that will kill coccidia oocysts that won't harm you or melt your cage. I found a Korean study on a strain of poultry coccidia. It concluded that a 50% acetic acid solution (vinegar is only 5-9%), a 30% cresol soup(???), 10% NaOH (lye very caustic) and a benzene/xylene combo worked well. I couldn't find these either commercially available in the U.S. or practical.

I know I'm becoming a broken record but it's true to get anything disinfectant to work you will need to remove any organic material with a good soap and water scrubbing and a thorough rinse. Do all of this somewhere that your other cages or chameleons never contact. Any coccidia you fail to kill can remain in the environment for up to 2 years. I used the far end of my yard. Avoid splashing the cleaners around as they could carry the coccidia with them. It loves water.

Rumor has it and a VCA website that a 1:15 solution of house hold bleach will kill coccidia. They don't say how much contact time but I would do a minimum of 20-30 minutes rewetting as needed. When I worked a veterinary hospitals we sometimes used a 1:10 solution. This is the one instance I would ever use bleach this strong. It is hard on your cage and fixtures but it is better than throwing them out. If money is no object you might want to do that but you will still need to use a cage during the treatment phase and it should be disinfected weekly until the infection has been eliminated. A cage should be able to handle 2-3 treatments without showing much damage. At this concentration bleach can eat away at your clothes and splatters will instantly bleach out. Rubber gloves and eye protection should be worn.

I found anecdotal evidence (personal testimony in limited numbers) on this site that 40 volume hydrogen peroxide will kill coccidia. This is not the peroxide from the drug store or the cleaning aisle of the grocery store but a beauty supply product. It is the strongest peroxide solution used for bleaching hair. It comes in a liquid and cream form. Get the liquid it's much easier to work with and rinse. This is a gnarly bleaching agent so gloves and eye protection should be used. It will ruin clothes and fabric, it's that bleaching thing again. Contact time was 10-15 minutes so I would go with 15 to be sure.

I have found more info from the poultry industry that an old way to disinfect for coccidia is with an application of fertilizer and slated lime sprayed with water to release the ammonia and kill coccidia. Not practical for our situation but it does confirm that ammonium hydroxide can be effective against coccidia oocysts. It is also mentioned by people on the forum treating coccidia as a means of disinfection. The strongest commonly available ammonia solution I could find was a 10% solution. It is a commercial grade ammonia solution. Ace Hardware carries it and custodial supply places probably have it also. The fumes from this are very irritating to your eyes and other mucous membranes so gloves, googles and a very well ventilated area are mandatory. Do not use this in direct sunlight or heat as that will make it vaporize even faster and increase the risk and reduce the amount of surface contact time you will get. Contact time was not mentioned so I would try for 20-30 minutes."

 

[cyberlocc]

You will need to wash your hands with soap and water between cages hand sanitizer will not kill coccidia. You need to remove it from your hands and wash it down the drain.

Here is what I have so far it needs more editing but it may be useful. Forgive any typos and run-on sentences.

Blog rough draft
"No matter what products you use, read and follow the manufacturers directions and pay special attention to the warnings. Used incorrectly they could harm you or your pets. Never ever use bleach and ammonia together.

First thing throw out anything that is porous, branches, plants, soil, rubber vines, etc. Then toss anything that is cheap and easy to replace feeder cups and the like. It's not worth reinfecting your chameleon by holding on to this stuff. If it can't be scrubbed and immersed in strong chemicals it has to go. This is the main difference between deep cleaning and a disinfection. In disinfecting we want to avoid exposing a new animal to anything infectious the previous occupant may have had. It should be a fresh start.

If you are dealing with CANV I would also dump or disinfect anything that touched the outside of the cage. Replace any cage covers (plastic sheeting) and disinfect the lamp reflectors and cords. Don't immerse electrical equipment but do wipe them down when they are unplugged. I would wipe down the walls in the area of the cage as well. Fungal spores can travel on dust motes so it's best to try to reduce any possible sources.

Review the basics of cleaning in Part 1 they still apply. The soap and water scrub down from Part 3 is our next step. Hot soapy water and a thorough rinsing are the foundation of disinfection if you want your disinfectants to work.
Basic Disinfection



Coccidia

I have it on good authority, two board certified reptile specialists, that coccidia can be a commensal organism (part of their normal flora) and only needs to be treated if the chameleon isn't doing well. If you have a strain that is causing trouble I will go over some possible ways to eliminate it in the environment. I personally prefer to keep it out of my collection entirely. I would rather treat an animal for parasites when it is healthy than wait until it is debilitated with something else and have to treat then. That is a decision you will have to make for yourself with your veterinarian. Either way an infected animal can continue to reinfect itself in a contaminated cage.

In the official literature there is very little that will kill coccidia oocysts that won't harm you or melt your cage. I found a Korean study on a strain of poultry coccidia. It concluded that a 50% acetic acid solution (vinegar is only 5-9%), a 30% cresol soup(???), 10% NaOH (lye very caustic) and a benzene/xylene combo worked well. I couldn't find these either commercially available in the U.S. or practical.

I know I'm becoming a broken record but it's true to get anything disinfectant to work you will need to remove any organic material with a good soap and water scrubbing and a thorough rinse. Do all of this somewhere that your other cages or chameleons never contact. Any coccidia you fail to kill can remain in the environment for up to 2 years. I used the far end of my yard. Avoid splashing the cleaners around as they could carry the coccidia with them. It loves water.

Rumor has it and a VCA website that a 1:15 solution of house hold bleach will kill coccidia. They don't say how much contact time but I would do a minimum of 20-30 minutes rewetting as needed. When I worked a veterinary hospitals we sometimes used a 1:10 solution. This is the one instance I would ever use bleach this strong. It is hard on your cage and fixtures but it is better than throwing them out. If money is no object you might want to do that but you will still need to use a cage during the treatment phase and it should be disinfected weekly until the infection has been eliminated. A cage should be able to handle 2-3 treatments without showing much damage. At this concentration bleach can eat away at your clothes and splatters will instantly bleach out. Rubber gloves and eye protection should be worn.

I found anecdotal evidence (personal testimony in limited numbers) on this site that 40 volume hydrogen peroxide will kill coccidia. This is not the peroxide from the drug store or the cleaning aisle of the grocery store but a beauty supply product. It is the strongest peroxide solution used for bleaching hair. It comes in a liquid and cream form. Get the liquid it's much easier to work with and rinse. This is a gnarly bleaching agent so gloves and eye protection should be used. It will ruin clothes and fabric, it's that bleaching thing again. Contact time was 10-15 minutes so I would go with 15 to be sure.

I have found more info from the poultry industry that an old way to disinfect for coccidia is with an application of fertilizer and slated lime sprayed with water to release the ammonia and kill coccidia. Not practical for our situation but it does confirm that ammonium hydroxide can be effective against coccidia oocysts. It is also mentioned by people on the forum treating coccidia as a means of disinfection. The strongest commonly available ammonia solution I could find was a 10% solution. It is a commercial grade ammonia solution. Ace Hardware carries it and custodial supply places probably have it also. The fumes from this are very irritating to your eyes and other mucous membranes so gloves, googles and a very well ventilated area are mandatory. Do not use this in direct sunlight or heat as that will make it vaporize even faster and increase the risk and reduce the amount of surface contact time you will get. Contact time was not mentioned so I would try for 20-30 minutes."

Great stuff.

But.


I think we should be looking for a way to do this without, destroying everything. Ya, the guy (or gal) with a screen cage, that has a Ficus and a pothos, Chuck it no problem.

However come full circle back to me, with a Bio Viv, my walls are lined with 300 dollars worth of cork bark. Some of my plants are 100+ dollars for a seedling. Throwing out some 50c dowels and a 10 dollar pothos is alot different than scrapping thousands worth of porous material.

In a case like mine, I think dealing with the Viv and the Cham separately would be ideal. Where there is a QT Viv, that's designed to be parasite free (plastic plants ect) and then dealing with the parasites in the Viv as a separate entity. However alot of people's Vivs, that is being suggested to scrap is 10x the cost of the Cham. (Not saying let the Cham die instead, simply saying what do we do when neither losing the Chams or the porous material is an option)

 

[snitz427]

Get fecals and quarantine them... I am not going to use the amonia I am too scared of it. I am going to go buy peroxide today.

yep thats the plan, fecals and quarantine for a while.

 

[JacksJill]

@cyberlocc You need to isolate your animal prior to putting into your amazing bioactive or you are screwed.
Buy a cheap cage fill it with cheap plastic plants and do an isolation period of 30-45 days prior to caging in the bioactive. Time + clean fecals=amazing cage.
I know that's not the answer you want but it's the best one I have.
If you buy your feeders in stores that house chameleons it will be possible to get coccidia that way and other parasites. There has to be a source of infected poop as it has a fecal oral route. feeders aren't carriers of coccidia as much as they are distributors of infected poop (fomites).

 

[cyberlocc]

You need to isolate your animal prior to putting into your amazing bioactive or you are screwed.
Buy a cheap cage fill it with cheap plastic plants and do an isolation period of 30-45 days prior to caging in the bioactive. Time + clean fecals=amazing cage.
I know that's not the answer you want but it's the best one I have.
If you buy your feeders in stores that house chameleons it will be possible to get coccidia that way and other parasites. There has to be a source of infected poop as it has a fecal real route. feeders aren't carriers of coccidia as much as they are distributors of infected poop (fomites).

Oh ya I am 100% with the using a QT cage approach. However what happens if later parasites infect it. Is what I was saying. There has to be a way to kill them and not kill the plants, such as a chemical solution.

Removable wall panels are defiantly a better option than Fixed I am finding. My next cage will incorporate this idea, and use acrylic sheets or foamed PVC, to attach the cork too. That way it can be removed and soaked.

 

[AnamCara]

Good luck Beman you're a really good cham momma! Keeping my healing vibes towards you and your chamily!

 

[JacksJill]

Coccidia sporulated oocysts are the sherman tanks of the parasite world they can survive in formaldehyde. They can live for 2 years in soil. You need a chemical capable of opening their shell or cooking them in it. I think that's why peroxide works (just my theory) because it is used to open the hair shaft to color treat and may open the oocyst. No plant cell can stand up to that.

 

[cyberlocc]

Coccidia sporulated oocysts are the sherman tanks of the parasite world they can survive in formaldehyde. They can live for 2 years in soil. You need a chemical capable of opening their shell or cooking them in it. I think that's why peroxide works (just my theory) because it is used to open the hair shaft to color treat and may open the oocyst. No plant cell can stand up to that.

Plants stand up to peroxide just fine. Peroxide is used to kill disease in plants like Brown Rot. I spray my orchids with peroxide.

I have never tried 12% but I have thourghly soaked a few orchids in 12% and left it on there. 12% may be too much, but wouldn't we see some burning from 6% if it was?

I have also seen peroxide used on Mealy Bugs.

 

[JacksJill]

This stuff is harsh but it might be worth trying. You will have to remove all of the soil. You could try it on a pathos and see if it survives.

 

[cyberlocc]

This stuff is harsh but it might be worth trying. You will have to remove all of the soil. You could try it on a pathos and see if it survives.

Ya I don't have the problem myself right now. I was just curious for the future. Defiantly is worth a shot.

Even if all the plants don't survive, the chance of living threw peroxide is alot better than living threw being thrown away haha.

Soil is like the dowels, cheap, Chuck it. No sense keeping it. I was just curious if anyone has tried to do this without throwing away plants ect. .

 

[Chameleomom]

Wow scary stuff. My prayers to you and the chams

 

[JacksJill]

It is easier to treat inside the animal before it sporulates that it is to treat in the environment. It's a PIA but it can be done. it just helps to know your enemy.

 

[cyberlocc]

It is easier to treat inside the animal before it sporulates that it is to treat in the environment. It's a PIA but it can be done. it just helps to know your enemy.

Defiantly a good Dragonstrand or the likes, with Plastic Vines, plastic everything as a QT is a great idea. You can throw in a cheap throw away plant to help raise humidity and oxygen if you wanted, and use that for a few clean Fecals before moving into it's Lifetime Viv.

 

[snitz427]

Coccidia sporulated oocysts are the sherman tanks of the parasite world they can survive in formaldehyde. They can live for 2 years in soil. You need a chemical capable of opening their shell or cooking them in it. I think that's why peroxide works (just my theory) because it is used to open the hair shaft to color treat and may open the oocyst. No plant cell can stand up to that.

I think your theory is probably right, peroxide eats healthy tissue. It is tough stuff, even the first aid strength. I know that in the hospitals, they have stopped using peroxide on wounds as it actually does more harm to healthy cells then good. (per my sister, an RN)

 

[Beman]

UPDATE:

So I had to order the 40 volume... It will not be here until Wednesday. We did not have a beauty supply here that would sell to the public and they did not care about my sad story to sell to me anyways.

I got the medicine. I cried as the hornworm squirmed when I was injecting it, while my daughter had her arms wrapped around me tight trying to comfort me. It was one of the most sad things I have ever done.

I got Bahari to take the worm and then two dubia, thank god. It took almost 2 hours to get him to eat it all but he finally did. He has not wanted to take anything else but I think this is good at least for today. It is like he knows I am trying to keep him from dying.

I appreciate everyone here and their support.

Please get fecals on your chams before you ever introduce them to their permanent home or to the same area that they will share with another cham. This is hell to fight... Trying to deal with something that is invisible to the eye... I am having to double check everything before I do it to ensure I am not contaminating anything.