Cohabitation in larger chams

Extensionofgreen

Extensionofgreen

Chameleon Enthusiast
I'm curious who among you have experience keeping melleri and parsons in groups or pairs.
What size enclosures are you using? How many animals per enclosure? Do you desperate them for gestation? Any challenges? Do you have any observations that lead you to believe there were any benefits or disadvantages to keeping them together?

I have successfully kept melleri in groups of several animals, with a single mature male and I'm currently building an 8'x3'x6' enclosure for my pair of parsonii, which are currently cohabiting in a reptarium, with 2 other reptariums available, if separation is needed.
 
hello,,,i have been keeping breeding chameleons for 35 years,,i have exstensive experience with most species,,,,,i currently keep mellers,,,which I keep in groups,, generaly I keep them in groups of 3, one male and two females,,,for breeding purposes,,,,,but in the past I kept a large group together 8 animals,,,males and females,,,no problems ,,as long as their is enough space,,,but they don't breed when they are kept like this,,,,for breeding they need to be separated for a couple of weeks,,then keep together,,,the displaying will be instant,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,parsons chameleons,,,,i kept parsons together no problems,,,they ignore each other,,,,the only time you can have a problem ,,,is if you keep them in a seasonal cycle,,,,for breeding purposeses,,,,then the males can be aggressive to all,,,,,
 
Food for.thought...when a chameleon is in the wild and doesn't want another chameleon near it, the chameleon can move away because there is space to do so. In captivity how much space (how big of a cage/room) do you need so that one chameleon can move away from another if it wants to? Sometimes the stress of being close to another is silent/hard to notice.

Also...perhaps it's "easier" to keep more than one together if they reproduce only once a year.

As I said...food for thought.
 
Kinyonga,
You have valid points and there are many species of chameleons and other reptiles that show disdain for cohabitants. In the case of melleri and parsonii, there is evidence that the animals DO live in loose social groups, with a couple to several females within a the territory of a male. While I have limited experience with parsons chameleons in groups, melleri seem to be more at ease, when cohabitated, but one needs to be diligent about providing visual barriers, multiple gradients and basking points, food, water, and space for avoidance. I never kept my melleri in anything smaller than 6' tall and 8' wide. I also hand fed, which allowed me to ensure each melleri was given its share. I did breed them, kept as a group of 3 females to one male.
I included lots of large, dense, potted plants, for cover and visual separation. I never saw any signs of stress and in fact, the melleri would often share branches and basking spots. Not even breeding makes it gravid females showed any aggression. Now, dermensis, for example, even in a large cage, showed no tolerance for one another, once the female was gravid, even in a large enclosure, although they seemed to be happy enough as a pair, kept in the largest, densely planted reptarium. I think a lot goes into what makes chameleon species suitable for cohabitation, including the habitat and availability of resources, in their natural environment.
 
Just curious ( not going to get one) but what is the size cage recommended for one merlleri or parsonii? I assume more than one requires a greenhouse.
 
Since I relocated my surviving melleri to a member that later hatched clutches, laid by the females, after breeding here, I can't say. My adult female, Madge, was a WC adult and I had her 3 years, before she passed and I rehomed the others. She was gravid, when she died, though the eggs were not shelled. No cause of death could be determined.
The melleri never squabbled, displayed, or showed at signs of distress, from cohabitation and 3 clutches of CBB babies resulted from their living arrangement.
 
The eggs were not shelled, so there were no issues with binding or infection from ruptured eggs. I don't disagree that stress can be underlying and not apparent, but there are also ways for the trained eye to rule stress out.
I also house this group in larger cages, at other times, so perhaps they were used to one another and that is why cohabitated in the smaller cage was so successful.
There's not reason not to attempt to house melleri and parsons and maybe other species together, with proper observance of certain rules and regular assessment of the animals.
For breeding purposes, 2 animals kept separately would experience more stress, as one would need to be removed from its territory, and one will need to have its territory invaded by another animal.
Not all chameleons tolerate it and one needs to be prepared to separated the animals, if there are any signs of stress or disagreement, but this shouldn't happen with a properly planted, planned, and accommodating enclosure.
I'm not advocating that everyone go out and try to jam their veileds and panthers into reptibreezes, but melleri and parsonii are rumored to live in loose groups of a mature male and harem of females/juveniles.
I haven't heard of someone that met with problems, when cohabitating their melleri, in a properly set up enclosure or free range.
If there are any stories of failure with cohabitation in these species, I'd like to hear of the details.
 
"stress will cause death in a gravid female."...
http://www.melleridiscovery.com/breeding/breeding.htm
"female melleri tend to stay in their own territory, and males pass through to breed and hunt"
You said "for breeding purposes"..."one will need to have its territory invaded by another"....as I quoted from the Site I listed above, that's generally what happens with many chameleon species in the wild.
 
That quote cannot be used as a blanket statement, because I had a gravid female lay and not die, while cohabitating.

Every animal is different and every keeper's approach is their own, based on the information they have and opinions they have, based on that information. I happened to have driven to TN to pick up a large, WC male, from the originator of that website and we were in regular communication. I also purchased 4 of her CBB babies. I'm sure she would have found someone more suitable to take the male and place her babies with, had she had doubts about my methods, at the time.
 
When you have successfully kept whatever species of chameleon you decide to in a group and specify the size of the area they were kept in and they live long healthy lives and produce healthy babies that also live long healthy lives then you may be able to say that species can cohabit. Having one live two or three years when the life an is known to be considerably more doesn't really prove that you have it right in my books....just my opinion.
 
I'm sorry, but you don't know me, my successes, my failures, my experience, or lack of, and I lost Madge, after she had several health issues, that damaged her kidneys and the fact that she was gravid, after 3 years, in my care, speaks for something.
I don't find your conversation with me anything more than accusing insinuations and since I don't know you either, I'm going to choose to let my successes speak for me, and leave you to your opinion. I was the first person, I'm aware of, to achieve F2 offspring in melleri, and I sent other, healthy, gravid, animals to talented keepers, that hatched clutches as a result of my husbandry. That, as imperfect as it may be, speaks for itself.
 
OK folks, let's consider a couple of things here.

Relatively few melleri and parsoni have been kept in groups so I suggest that we are still only able to predict how well every single animal will or won't cohabitate with other individuals. The few people who have worked with them haven't reared multiple generations yet, so IMHO the jury is still out...so we should err on the cautious side. It's only out of concern for these complex creatures. No one wants to put them at risk...no one.

Chams are individuals. Some are tolerant and others are not. All sorts of things can affect how tolerant one happens to be. Hormonal cycling, overall health, just basic individual traits. I know I can't mindread a cham, just infer from its more obvious behavior and my personal experience with a known individual. Change things in a group and you've got a whole set of reactions to judge every time.

This is a discussion board. Its what we are all here for and there is a very wide range of experience this group draws on. When someone poses a question to this group expect opinions and questions. If you don't really want the discussion, maybe its best left unsaid.
 
I don't mind discussion or even questioning of my methods, but if someone makes blanket statements and post links on various topics to validate things, it's abrasive, since they aren't basing it on actual experience, they aren't asking questions to further their understanding of my approach, they don't know me or my experience, and every post is an unsolicited rebuke of my methods and experience.
No one is an expert on chameleon nutrition, since so little is known and what is "known" can be found all over this forum. Unfortunately, often times, we learn better ways of doing things through failure. That's not to say we should attempt things that do t hold any possible benefits to our animals, just to see if it's possible, but with experience and understanding comes the confidence and obligation to try to do things better and gain better understandings and more information.
I posed a question for discussion. I stated my experiences, but did/do not suggest it is the only way of doing things. If someone has a different idea, say so and validate it with your reasoning or preferably actual experience, not with repeated challenges to the OP, with regurgitated links. Links are ok, disagreeing is ok, but there's a right and a wrong way to have discussions, especially with people who you do not know, who may in fact be as good or even a better, more knowledgable keeper than yourself.
If someone had sound reasoning, even if popular opinion disagrees, as long as it doesn't outrageously fly in the face of already established FACTS, we don't know enough to try to tear anyone else's approach or ideas down.
 
So, keeping animals in groups isn't just species based...it is more individualistic. I have kept melleri for the last 5 years and have worked with them at a previous job before bringing them into my personal collection. I personally keep all my melleri different as they all have different moods, mindsets, intentions, etc. I at this point in time have 12 melleri. Now, three of those are new and are not sexually mature. My statements below are based on my experience.

I have and do keep some of my melleri in groups. But, I did not do so simply putting females and males together in acceptable ratios. I played with pairings and groups for quite some time to make sure that I wasn't forcing anything. I setup cameras in my melleri greenhouse and watched them constantly to see how they reacted to each other. I learned that giving room for retreat is just simply not enough. This is based on my own theory with keeping this species. One trio I had showed ZERO signs of issues until I watched them via camera. The male was really harassing the females and not paying attention to their non receptive displays. I use the word harassing, but he was not violent, he just would not give it up. I let this play out for about a week. Eventually, I began to think all was good. Until I really played back the footage. They were in a 15x10x8 enclosure. That's more room than what most provide. I did this so a retreat was possible. Apparently I was an idiot for thinking that was enough room. I say this because, the two particular females I had kept showing larger protozoan counts on their fecals than others I had. They were acclimated and had been conservatively treated. I have learned that just treating melleri with full dosage renders death more often than health and success. So, I consulted with some herpetologist friends of mine. Their answer, STRESS. No, I know the signs of stress..it couldn't be that. I explained that they had gone through some stress at the beginning of the trio being introduced, but that all was calm now. But, when I watched the footage, I found out I was missing the bigger picture. Each day, the male would make his intentions known. The females eventually would just separate and leave this one designated area to the male. I was okay with this. Until I realized that throughout the day, the male would basically walk the perimeter of the enclosure constantly forcing the females to move to avoid him. Now, keep in mind that I would have NEVER seen this if I hadn't of placed a camera in the enclosure. Also, this is when I realized that melleri will go to great extent to hide stress. Every time I would walk in, I would never see distressed displays in my females....ever. But, when I would leave, I would see them on camera displaying. Once I separated them, the females health improved and they really gained a substantial amount of weight. If I would have never seen this via camera and separated them, I have no doubt that those two females would be dead.

Second example was almost completely the same, except it was a female that was causing the issues. She became dominant over her area and even the male was leery of pissing her off. After seeing the way the male acted in one of my enclosures, I thought...well maybe a dominant female will help set a tone. Wrong. Because once the male started showing interest, she immediately started to turn on the other female in the enclosure. It really triggered something in her to make sure that she was the only one to receive any sort of advancement from the male. I had to separate them quickly because she was vicious. This was also when I learned that males will use the body in a physical dispute with another. But females are the biters.

Third example. I have one group that is just 3 females. They are fantastic with each other. The larger more dominant female mentioned above is now in this group. She really stated her dominance when she entered the group and there was zero challenge from the others. So all is good in their world. But, I will never let that female see another male around the females in her group.

I also have a male(Naga) in with a female and they are perfect together as well. Very calm between the two of them.

I have also worked with parsonii, but they were all kept in individual enclosures, so I can't really offer insight on that front.

So, do I feel that cohabitation is kosher.....yes. The blanket statement I worry about is when people talk in ratios. They will say it is okay to have one male and two females or three females together, etc. That is just not the case. I always tell people, react to what you see and worry about what you don't see. I will never pair animals unless I am able to watch like I did with mine. Now, I work from home...so it was easy to have feed coming into my laptop and constantly checking. But, think about how much behavior you witness throughout the day with your chameleons...and then think about how much you DON'T. Territorial behavior/accidents can come out of the blue. One quick advance gone wrong can kill.

That is just my experience with them. I would also like to point out that just because I have groups that are doing well doesn't mean I let my guard down. A group's dynamic can change and turn on a dime.
 
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I had a female that would get angry with me and hiss and bite at me, after I treated newer melleri. She was actually responding to their stress and knew I was causing it, while medicating them. One of these melleri had come from the same seller and had been housed with her, but over 6 weeks, before she ( the newer melleri ) came to live with me. Melleri are amazingly intelligent and complex animals.
In hindsight, I would have done things differently with my melleri. I was an ambitious 20 something year old and my successes made me bold. I would not have houses the juveniles with the adults, since my CBB female's first clutch was fertile, that implies she received lots of male attention, perhaps before it was ideal for her.
I had housed my melleri in a 21'x8'x6' enclosure, then outdoors, during Spring and Summer and I split the group into 2 groups and each group had a 7'x7'x7' enclosure. It worked, but things could have been better. I scrapped the larger cage, because they never utilized it, and kept them in the larger, but much smaller cage, mentioned before. I never saw and aggression and I did regular fecals and all were clear, as I worked at a herp vet, as an assistant, at the time.
I think you're explanation about them being very individual and needing covert observations is spot on. I plan to get some melleri this Summer and I'll certainly be acclimating them separately and allowing interaction to be carefully monitored, before any decisions regarding cohabitation is made.
I still think that 10 years ago, acclimating 3 WC adults and getting an F2 clutch and at least another additional clutch was an amazing achievement and speaks not of perfect culture but certainly dedication and the best that could be done, at the time.
 
jpowell, THIS is the way to document and back up your views about cohabitation! Well done. Impartial observation (the camera when you are not there affecting their behavior). How many hundreds of times do we answer behavior questions with "chams are individuals"? What might work for one or two particular animals may not work for another set. When something changes for one cham there are ripple effects for others. True in the wild, true in captivity. The difference with captivity is, the chams can't escape each other as effectively as they can in habitat so one can harass or bully others more of the time than might happen in the wild. If you know your particular chams because you document their behavior, you can create the best situations to suit them.

On the other hand, we as forum members have to be careful not to steer a relatively inexperienced keeper down a bad road too. Deciding to house chams together must be done with great care, not because we want it to work. When we interpret what our chams are doing we have to be careful...are we seeing what we HOPE for or what actually happened? Are we anthropomorphizing? Observing something once and never questioning it again? Lots of slippery slopes to navigate.

I had a very odd situation with 2 male chams (B. fischeri and T. deremensis) once that just wasn't typical. They simply seemed content to share a territory, even a relatively small one. Of course they were originally in separate habitats (a big 6'x5'x6' heavily planted screen cage divided down the middle), but the fischeri was an actively roaming escape artist and kept finding ways to cross the divider day after day after day. I finally took the barrier out as he kept irritating his rostrals on it. Their cage was in the room where I spent most of my time, so I waited and watched for posturing, stress colors, bullying, retreat, etc. Never happened. The fischeri roamed the brighter warmer upper area of the habitat, the deremensis preferred the lower shaded cooler area. However, the two of them sometimes roosted on the same branch, ate out of the same feeder bin, drank from the same plant, etc. And, not just in my cage, but long after I had to give them to another keeper before moving to AK. They continued to share a habitat built out of a shower surround in the basement of their new owner's house. Their new owner sent photos of them with their feet just about touching. And another odd thing was that neither of them showed the same toleration to other chams of any species (I had 8-9 chams in my house at the time, all kept separately, but they did catch glimpses of others occasionally). The deremensis in particular was a rather crabby soul who didn't hesitate to bite. It was pretty easy to assume that he would be very intolerant of seeing another cham from a distance. For whatever reason, these two were OK with each other.
 
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